An image that got me wondering

[JBoy]

The answers to our origins will be released later this year in prometheus.

[noam]

good point JBoy,good point

[gnome]

Why has the subject of reality arose in this thread? Reality has nothing to do with the existence of God or the creation of our existence.

the nature of our reality being that it is impossible to truly know our origins

i haven't even read the thread but that was easy

How is that the nature of our reality? Given enough time we will discover our origins.

[magma]

Maybe god does exist, who are we to know the truth of the matter but claiming the bible as the ultimate truth is just totally crazy because its been re hashed so many times that the original message or truth is long gone.

Indeed.

Even the Bible (in its unmolested/translated/twisted-by-kings/burnt/buried/dug-up/re-burnt state) doesn't declare itself to be ultimate truth. It's a guide that was continually being updated (hence containing so many books written by so many different people at different times, some contradictory of each other... Matthew, Mark, Luke, John et al didn't sit around and divvy up the New Testament; it's an anthology) with evidence of Man's experience of God... for some reason people decided it didn't need to be kept updated any more. Well, apart from Muslims for a bit... and Mormons...

The bible doesn't really concern itself much with proving God's existence anyway - Monotheism was already pretty firmly in place by the time it got written (including the old bits which are well pre-Jesus). It just says that's the way it is... by the time a few tens of generations have been taught monotheism (or whatever) in isolation anything else just seems absurd, nobody bothered to question it until it started to become worryingly apparent that you didn't really need a creator afterall.

We should still be writing and editing The Bible as some glorious document of all that can be virtuous about human life. It should contain about the same amount of anti-Greed/Capitalism (Sermon on the Mount is an all time humanity classic), almost infinitely more about women, quite a bit less about stoning, one or two less plagues and a fair bit more about LSD.

[magma]

Why has the subject of reality arose in this thread? Reality has nothing to do with the existence of God or the creation of our existence.

the nature of our reality being that it is impossible to truly know our origins

i haven't even read the thread but that was easy

How is that the nature of our reality? Given enough time we will discover our origins.

Hopefully. But we're a lifeform that has developed senses to comprehend a 3D rendering of the little bit of spacetime we inhabit - just enough in order to survive and multiply (we can't even see all the colours or hear all the sounds some animals can) - we can build computers/technology to get over things we understand but don't have the natural tools for, but it could be that we're simply not equipped to understand the entire solution to the problem. It's already hard enough to properly explain spacetime to most people (me included).

I tend to agree though. We're fucking amazing. Someone will figure it out and the rest of us will all benefit from being able to have our own little play-universes in the closet without having a clue how they really did it.

[Muncey]

indoctrination

they're raised with it starting from such a young age that the normal reasoning process is pretty much bypassed. they don't ever really get to the point of questioning whether it makes sense or not

Yes exactly.
I'm not really a huge Dawkins fan as I sort of see him as an atheist version of an annoying evangelist, but I do respect his opinions and works. He puts it perfectly here:

Watch some of Christohper Hitchens arguments, he puts across some brilliant arguments.. obviously to no effect because religious people will never (or rarely) change what they believe because of a few points. Just as Athiests won't, the only difference is Athiests have logical reasons for having those beliefs.

I hate preachers with a passion, theres always some tnuc in the middle of Manchester city centre on a step ladder shouting about Jesus and God. I really feel to get a step ladder and put it directly opposite, about a foot, and shout why religion is poison... but that'd make me as crackers as them. Nobody should be forced to believe in anything, its sickening when i see adults drag their small children to these brainwashing things that just spout shit about science being wrong and that dinosaurs were around 2000 years ago. It's child abuse, simple as. I, unlike a lot of people i went school with, was never baptised or anything.. my parents always told me they would let me decide what to believe in and never forced anything upon me and thats what i believe. I've had numerous conversations with my friends (who aren't religious or believe in God) who have said they want their child baptised for the following 2 reasons... 1. family gathering, 2. just in case. Now I think any religious person who believes that to be a very sacred thing would be insulted by those reasons.. especially the first, but really they don't care your reasonings as long as you just do it. I replied "so you're going to have ever religious ceremony on your child 'just in case'?"... no obviously not, just the one thats popular here in the UK, that should be safe enough!

Its embarrasing when I talk to quite intelligent friends of mine about religion and they don't realise how uneducated, ignorant and uneducated they sound. The best one i've heard is "you're just not open minded". Those people usually believe in ghosts too though...

[mrdii]

I haven't read this thread so I apologise if what I say has been covered but:

- Greek Religion/Pagan Religion laid down the very foundations for the Abrahamic Religions of today (e.g. Islam and Christianity). Islams great mathematical achievements were taken from Greek findings, and Greek Gods which were basically copied into Roman Gods then influenced Christianity in a massive way, but instead of having many they morphed into one.

[noam]

there was religion and astrology before greeks

zoroastrian mythology

egyptian mythology

etc. etc.

[kay]

Just skimmed through the thread, not going to dip into the whole atheist/deist argument which doesn't really have any direct relevance to the OP.

I think that the difference in treatment of Greek mythology to the contents of the Bible is simply to do with relevance and time. When the Greek civilisation was still going strong, what we consider now to be mythology was a living, breathing religion with lots of people subscribing to it. Going up against it would probably be fairly close to blasphemy and unthinkable. Having said that, I think there are a lot of differences between a monotheistic religion versus a polytheistic religion. In polytheism, you have multiple gods/spirits/agents responsible for different things. It would be a lot easier for different viewpoints to slip in, and potentially co-exist. So you have the Athenians with their patron gods, and you have the Spartans with theirs, for example. They weren't necessarily the friendliest of cities, but they got along under what was nominally considered the Greek religion. Hence perhaps that might be why it is easier to see these mythologies as being parables.

Which also leads to the fact that stories were also constantly being made up about this god or another. Forward a couple thousand years later, it's almost become set in the minds of Western culture that the Greek religious beliefs are myths.

Christianity (and the related religions) on the other hand has been reinforced for the better part of the last 2000 years in a very rigorous manner in the Western Hemisphere. This makes it very hard for a great proportion of the Western and Middle Eastern world to consider it to be anything but reality. Growing up in the East, I certainly considered most of the older Biblical portions to be myth, in the same way that Greek parables were myths.

So I think that the difference in how the two are treated is mainly down to upbringing and culture, and modified potentially by the way either religion was enforced.

Deism, atheism, agnoticism, scientism. Put crudely, they're all belief systems. Put in another way, they are simply different ways in which we choose to live our lives.

[Muncey]

Deism, atheism, agnoticism, scientism. Put crudely, they're all belief systems. Put in another way, they are simply different ways in which we choose to live our lives.

Thats why I don't call myself an athiest, more an anti-thiest. It's not a belief but more a rejection of any belief in God or higher being.

[SCope13]

Brilliant.

[Phigure]

Brilliant.

i live by that quote

[Hircine]

Brilliant.

i live by that quote

That small text is really great. Myself, I don't follow any religions, like Socrates (following the greek hype ) I only know that I don't know anything. Even though, I learned a lot from religions, specially the tibetan buddhism and rastafarianism, the theological aspect of a bodhisattva is amazing, a step ahead from the christian mythos. I only got a problem with christian religions for they did way too much evil to this world and chose to stay silent in face of many atrocities. But after all, it's up to me to give the example and accept differences, deep inside, we all come and go from this world in the same ways.

[capo ultra]

religion lol

[RandoRando]

I want to be a Christian. But it's hard for me to believe. The only thing that doesnt make stop wanting to beleive is demons. I'm sure alot of people believe in demons and seeing that they need a holy person (Jesus) to get them exercised has to mean something?

[MrAural]

I'm waiting for Jisreal, so I can kick off the Atheist shitstorm..

(Just kidding)

[Phigure]

I want to be a Christian. But it's hard for me to believe. The only thing that doesnt make stop wanting to beleive is demons. I'm sure alot of people believe in demons and seeing that they need a holy person (Jesus) to get them exercised has to mean something?

not really, it's completely explainable by common sense. the mind is a powerful thing. they're basically crazy people and the exorcism works through the placebo effect.

[RandoRando]

I want to be a Christian. But it's hard for me to believe. The only thing that doesnt make stop wanting to beleive is demons. I'm sure alot of people believe in demons and seeing that they need a holy person (Jesus) to get them exercised has to mean something?

not really, it's completely explainable by common sense. the mind is a powerful thing. they're basically crazy people and the exorcism works through the placebo effect.

How do you explain poltergeists then, or evp's of evil spirits or ghosts?

[JBoy]

I want to be a Christian. But it's hard for me to believe. The only thing that doesnt make stop wanting to beleive is demons. I'm sure alot of people believe in demons and seeing that they need a holy person (Jesus) to get them exercised has to mean something?

not really, it's completely explainable by common sense. the mind is a powerful thing. they're basically crazy people and the exorcism works through the placebo effect.

How do you explain poltergeists then, or evp's of evil spirits or ghosts?

Oh no

[kay]

Brilliant.

This. Exactly.