gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[Ongelegen]

So if I have -50, and I have 2 drum tracks hitting at -25, then I have 0.0 left in my headroom, correct

I'm still learning a lot of this too but I believe If your noise floor is -50 and you add a kick that hits at -25... and layer it with the same kick at -25 then yes, you just consumed all of your headroom.

No, -6dB is half the head room, -12dB a quarter, -18dB an eight, -24dB a sixteenth etc. The volume halfs or doubles each 6dB, depending if you go up or down the scale.

2 elements at -24dB each will peak at -18dB (1/16 + 1/16 = 1/8)
2 elements at -18dB each will peak at -12dB (1/8 + 1/8 = 1/4)
2 elements at -12dB each will peak at -6dB (1/4 + 1/4 = 1/2)

etc.

[Sonika]

I'm still learning a lot of this too but I believe If your noise floor is -50 and you add a kick that hits at -25... and layer it with the same kick at -25 then yes, you just consumed all of your headroom.

This is usually about the time I reread this entire thread, or MACC comes in and saves the day, whichever comes first.

*waits patiently*

Does Macc even visit this forum anymore?

I'm pretty sure he does actually... the MACC sees and hears all.

He is all powerful!

Haha but yeah, hopefully he'll come around soon. This is sort of one of my foremost problems atm.

EDIT: didn't see project EX's post

[Triphosphate]

No, -6dB is half the head room, -12dB a quarter, -18dB an eight, -24dB a sixteenth etc. The volume halfs or doubles each 6dB, depending if you go up or down the scale.

2 elements at -24dB each will peak at -18dB (1/16 + 1/16 = 1/8)
2 elements at -18dB each will peak at -12dB (1/8 + 1/8 = 1/4)
2 elements at -12dB each will peak at -6dB (1/4 + 1/4 = 1/2)

etc.

THANK YOU!

why isn't this thread stickied anymore?

[Ongelegen]

why isn't this thread stickied anymore?

It's linked to in the 'Mastering & Mixdown (ft. The Money Shot Thread)' which is stickied

[Sonika]

So if I have -50, and I have 2 drum tracks hitting at -25, then I have 0.0 left in my headroom, correct

I'm still learning a lot of this too but I believe If your noise floor is -50 and you add a kick that hits at -25... and layer it with the same kick at -25 then yes, you just consumed all of your headroom.

No, -6dB is half the head room, -12dB a quarter, -18dB an eight, -24dB a sixteenth etc. The volume halfs or doubles each 6dB, depending if you go up or down the scale.

2 elements of with the same frequency at -24dB each will peak at -18dB (1/16 + 1/16 = 1/8)
2 elements of with the same frequency at -18dB each will peak at -12dB (1/8 + 1/8 = 1/4)
2 elements of with the same frequency at -12dB each will peak at -6dB (1/4 + 1/4 = 1/2)

etc.

Thanks!

So if I'm understanding correctly, there IS no set "amount" of headroom.


And by the "same frequency" do you mean the same volume? I was under the impression that frequency referred to something as in EQ rather than in this context.

[Ongelegen]

Crap I wrote too fast without checking my post, the frequency part is to be left out , was also busy with other things. I've edited my post. Would be good if you guys edited my quote aswell, don't want to be spreading false info obviously

[nowaysj]

there IS no set "amount" of headroom.

Yes, this is mostly true. There is only a ceiling. And a deep bottomless void of db. Have you seen Time Bandits, the movie, there is a scene where they are dangling in these cages, and there is positively nothing below them, that's how head room works.

In practicality, there is noise way down there, but at 24 bits it's a long way down. That is the point of the moneyshot thread. There is only a ceiling above which you cannot go, but then near infinite space below, so just turn every bleating thing down, and you'll never have to worry about the ceiling. When I start on a track, no joke, my drums can be peaking at -20db. No jokes. Further drums very well may be layered over at a later time, but it is not a problem because I've got so much headroom to work with.

This was a threshold issue with which I struggled for years, once "the" macc taught me this, EVERYTHING became easier, and I could move on to learning... well, all of mixing.

[Sonika]

there IS no set "amount" of headroom.

Yes, this is mostly true. There is only a ceiling. And a deep bottomless void of db. Have you seen Time Bandits, the movie, there is a scene where they are dangling in these cages, and there is positively nothing below them, that's how head room works.

In practicality, there is noise way down there, but at 24 bits it's a long way down. That is the point of the moneyshot thread. There is only a ceiling above which you cannot go, but then near infinite space below, so just turn every bleating thing down, and you'll never have to worry about the ceiling. When I start on a track, no joke, my drums can be peaking at -20db. No jokes. Further drums very well may be layered over at a later time, but it is not a problem because I've got so much headroom to work with.

This was a threshold issue with which I struggled for years, once "the" macc taught me this, EVERYTHING became easier, and I could move on to learning... well, all of mixing.

Haha yeah I remember that Time Bandits scene, and thank you!

So next question - how do you guys deal with automation? Because at least in logic, you can't really ride the fades if there's any automation on that track.
But automation us a big part of the compositional process!
So what do you guys do?

[Ongelegen]

there IS no set "amount" of headroom.

Yes, this is mostly true. There is only a ceiling. And a deep bottomless void of db. Have you seen Time Bandits, the movie, there is a scene where they are dangling in these cages, and there is positively nothing below them, that's how head room works.

In practicality, there is noise way down there, but at 24 bits it's a long way down. That is the point of the moneyshot thread. There is only a ceiling above which you cannot go, but then near infinite space below, so just turn every bleating thing down, and you'll never have to worry about the ceiling. When I start on a track, no joke, my drums can be peaking at -20db. No jokes. Further drums very well may be layered over at a later time, but it is not a problem because I've got so much headroom to work with.

This was a threshold issue with which I struggled for years, once "the" macc taught me this, EVERYTHING became easier, and I could move on to learning... well, all of mixing.

Haha yeah I remember that Time Bandits scene, and thank you!

So next question - how do you guys deal with automation? Because at least in logic, you can't really ride the fades if there's any automation on that track.
But automation us a big part of the compositional process!
So what do you guys do?

You mean that u have automated the fader? I seldom automat the fader. But you can just automate it and then send the channel to a bus, with the bus you can ride the fader. Or you can automate the gain on the synth/sampler/any insert that has an output gain itself, but watchout that you don't clip your synth/sampler/insert. It can be clipping even if the channel fader isn't if you driven it's gain too much. Sorry if this isn't what you meant.

[nowaysj]

Oh, I see now. Use a utility device to get you channel's fader around 0db. then if you need to modulate, modulate the gain device that got the signal there. You'll still be able to do subtle fader tweaks to balance the tracks when mixing. Was mentioning this around here, and asking people to take it on faith that you should use gain devices, and leave that master fader around zero. This is one of the major reasons.

[Ongelegen]

Was mentioning this around here, and asking people to take it on faith that you should use gain devices, and leave that master fader around zero. This is one of the major reasons.

This definitely, it's a good practice to leave the master fader.

[nowaysj]

sorry taking sleep medication, and am having computer problems at same time, trying to make sentences is hard right now. Of course the master fader, but the track fader too. I was actually refering to traaack fader.

[Ongelegen]

sorry taking sleep medication, and am having computer problems at same time, trying to make sentences is hard right now. Of course the master fader, but the track fader too. I was actually refering to traaack fader.

No problem, ah I see. I don't do that actually, I use the track fader to adjust the level for proper gain staging. What would you say is the advantage of gain staging with the utility device instead of the track fader? I mean I understand gain staging and all that and never clip my output. I know that it's a good practice to set the level as close to the source as possible, but this is what i'm used to.

[Sonika]

Hey thanks for the help but I don't fully understand what you two mean by "utility device"?

[nowaysj]

haha, jokes, everything is easier than it seems. "Utility Device" - just some simple device in your daw to boost or lower gain, or do some other menial task.

[Sonika]

haha, jokes, everything is easier than it seems. "Utility Device" - just some simple device in your daw to boost or lower gain, or do some other menial task.

Ohhh gotcha. Yeah now everything makes more sense haha

[AxeD]

When I start on a track, no joke, my drums can be peaking at -20db.

When I start a track I wouldn't know the slightest about any db rating because I'm on Reason 4. I just make sure
nothing peaks and then I balance every sound by ear. Starting an audio course next week though so there's
a good chance I'll change my ways

[nowaysj]

Honestly one of the reasons I have a problem with (erm) Reason... maybe the Record portion of it has actual meters? Totally believe in trusting your ears... but they are notoriously unreliable, always willing to be deceived by a host of baddies, most notably gain. So I do check. For me, my mixes started getting way way better when I started considering gain staging.

[e-motion]

when I start a song I have the kick & snare peaking at 0db with a limiter on the master :noob:

actually, most of the times I start songs outside the studio, on my laptop speakers (i get most inspiration outside the studio and I don't have headphones), so it's a necessary evil. i only mix when a track is completely written

[Ongelegen]

Honestly one of the reasons I have a problem with (erm) Reason... maybe the Record portion of it has actual meters?

Yeah R6 has the mixer from Record, so it's perfectly capable to get a good mix ITB, but mixing outside out reason is the way to go imo