The 'help me make that dungeon sound' thread

[coogcoo]

Hey how do you guys go about making your subs for dungeon? It's a 2-part problem for me.
First of all, the editing of the sub so that it doesn't peak like mad but it still maintains a certain low-frequency fatness.
Second of all, basically long notes or short notes? And how many per measure? Do you like to just hit them here and there or have pretty much the entire track covered in sub? Do you like to have them hit with your kick, without your kick, with your snare, without your snare, in the spaces, not in the spaces.....?

Etc etc etc

your sub shouldnt be peaking like mad at all, if it is yr doing something wrong. for the extra low freqs (sub 40) i like to use a compressor on bass to keep it up in the mix.

i like long notes that have a lot of strong movement, and short notes that have more of an 808 style stab... this is pretty easy to recreate in any synth. lots of portamento. and it really depends on the situation for all the rest. there's no built in preference, sometimes it works to drop the sub with the downbeat, other times you want the bass to swing the track so you get a lil bit more off the grid with it

the questions yr asking are about creative decisions not technical ones. try to find a book called 250 Drum Machine Patterns if you ever can, i think you might be able to find a pdf online if you search. its just a really good source for rhythms that you might not have tought of otherwise..

[kingfbz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v8AmyzRQGs

does anybody know how you can make your bass similar to this like a dark electronic growl? or possibly the district dark growl
sounds ill!

would help a lot

[Electric_Head]

district posted his method a few pages back kingfbz

[5415]

Great thread. cheers for the info

[zonetrooper5]

Always wanted to know how to make this type of sound in operator/albino, will check this thread tomorrow when I hopefully have my new PC delivered.

[Reamz]

@ Sub question.

One thing I do is create my sub in massive distort it a tiny bit then add a lowpass about 40-45% all within massive. I then send the signal to 2 separate busses which I HPF and LPF respectively. This gives you an independant sub sound but also the higher harmonics which really makes it powerful

[subfect]

@ Sub question.

One thing I do is create my sub in massive distort it a tiny bit then add a lowpass about 40-45% all within massive. I then send the signal to 2 separate busses which I HPF and LPF respectively. This gives you an independant sub sound but also the higher harmonics which really makes it powerful

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!1ONE.

If you want powerful sub, you use a sine wave and LEAVE IT THE FUCK ALONE. See tune in my signature for an example. The ONLY problem with using a pure sine wave, is lack of harmonics meaning it won't be heard on shitty headphones or laptop speakers - but if you care about that, stop creating dungeonstep (yes I'm a little opinionated about this type of subgenre ). The only time you want to distort your sub for a dungeon track, is if it's the ONLY bass, and even then you should bus the sine to a separate channel, do what you want with it and high-pass it at around 60hz (depending on where your highest note for your sub hits). A lot of icicle tunes has this - basically a slightly overdriven sine wave on a separate channel, so that he still keeps the original sine in-tact and powerful as all fuck.

As for growls - this comes down to pure experimentation, but my best examples have been made with pitched down notched reeses that have had plenty of automation going on.

In regards to the soap dodgers question - notched reeses.

[Huts]

^This man speaks the truth. If you haven't watched Icicle's masterclass in the past month.. go do it. I seem to learn new things every time I watch it

[Dyssomnia]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!1ONE.

If you want powerful sub, you use a sine wave and LEAVE IT THE FUCK ALONE. See tune in my signature for an example. The ONLY problem with using a pure sine wave, is lack of harmonics meaning it won't be heard on shitty headphones or laptop speakers - but if you care about that, stop creating dungeonstep (yes I'm a little opinionated about this type of subgenre ). The only time you want to distort your sub for a dungeon track, is if it's the ONLY bass, and even then you should bus the sine to a separate channel, do what you want with it and high-pass it at around 60hz (depending on where your highest note for your sub hits). A lot of icicle tunes has this - basically a slightly overdriven sine wave on a separate channel, so that he still keeps the original sine in-tact and powerful as all fuck.

As for growls - this comes down to pure experimentation, but my best examples have been made with pitched down notched reeses that have had plenty of automation going on.

In regards to the soap dodgers question - notched reeses.

Mate, it's just his way of going around things, he's not saying everything should do it, but it works for him and if you know about Reamz, you'll love it!
I personally think just sine waves are a bit boring, I like playing with filters and a tiny bit distortion as well, but it differs on every song I make

[Sonika]

Can anyone explain how i might be able to make a similar sound to that in J:Kenzo's 'Ruff House'?



Im looking for the sound straight after the drop at 53, kind of a progressive drawn out filter sound. Ive been told that it could be a lowpassed saw with an enveloped pitch and sine underneath, but any more info on how to liven up and make the sound more interesting (what effects, filters etc) would be much appretiated.

Ok, you've got the main crux of it down. The most important aspect of trying to recreate that sound is the long attack on the synth itself, so that it kinda creeps in as opposed to ZOMG THERE IS NOW SYNTH meaning a more organic feel. Filtering wise, I'm a bit stumped. I'm tempted to go ahead and recommend this filter VST or that, but tbh any chump can fire off VST names so let's try something new; z-plane filters.


Z-plane filtering, in a nutshell, is a way of getting a more organic feel to your filters. Imagine a
filter effecting the sound on 2 axis', X & Y. Now add a third, Z. Ok, that make bollock all sense now I read it back. Imagine you've got 2 complex filter types setup, and you're using a single parameter to sweep between them.

You can recreate this in FL (of sorts) by running your synth pattern out into a mixer channel, and on that mixer channel having 2 seperate filter plugins. Again, am using filters as an example, but it works well with other effects once you've got the gist and want to start fucking around.

- Link the dry/wet volume effect dial on the right hand side next to both filters to a single MIDI controller parameter; jog wheel or rotary is a good one.
- Now, make sure the REMOVE CONFLICTS box at the top of the LINK TO CONTROLLER dialogue box is left unchecked.
- Set one of the dry/wet volumes as normal, and the other as inverted, so INPUT and 1-INPUT respectively.
- Linked to the jog wheel/rotary, that should mean that as you twist the knob one should go up and the other should go down. Leaving it in the middle will have 50% wet of both.

Fiddle with the parameters on each filter until you've got a pleasing sound, then try automating the input of the master controlling rotary/wheel so that you can sweep between the two filter states as you go. Usual guidelines apply with anything I put on here i.e. don't take it as gospel, experiment, do things different ways etc etc, bounce always bounce your output to see what works and build up your sound library etc etc.

Note that this is not z-plane filtering in the truest sense of the world. Z-plane filters are found within the EMU samplers and tbh try as I might I've not found an accurate representation of them within FL, so have gone about bodging my own together as per the above.

For more info on z-plane filters;

SOS: Synth School, Part 8: Wave Sequencing To Z-Plane Synthesis - http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun98/a ... chool.html
DOA: wtf are z-plane filters? - http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.ph ... adid=21985
DNBF: Z-Plane Filters? - http://dnbforum.com/showthread.php?1005 ... ne-Filters
KVR: Z-Plane Filter - http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1705168

Wait but you're talking about this just in the context of FL...I don't believe logic has such a thing that can mix between filters?

[Sonika]

^This man speaks the truth. If you haven't watched Icicle's masterclass in the past month.. go do it. I seem to learn new things every time I watch it

Such an amazing masterclass

[Immerse]

case by case is right but if we speak broadly mud in mid range bass usually comes from the 300-500hz area. sometimes weird, dark, subby type bass sounds have a big frequency spike around there that is essential for its sound so be careful eqing around there, dont just cut for the sake of it. But if I am reading you right what youre asking is how much 200hz area sound should you allow in a dark bass sound, I hope I have you right there. I would say the vast majority of the sound should sit between 80 and 300hz, you want to keep that section as intact as you can. Sometimes I do a little eq notch where my kick or snare is spiking down there to help it get through. I do high pass to make room for the sub but only just enough to get rid of the fundamental. Theres a spike in the sub range around 40-50 and the next is around 80-100, I might throw 4 high pass filters in a row on the mid range but none of them really touch that 80-100hz spike, they only clear the sub range.

I read an interview with Roni Size where he said he high passes his midrange at 200 or maybe even 250hz, so horses for courses. You never know if hes throwing a 12db per octave hp there and theres still tons of sound coming through below that or if he is wiping it out completely with 6x 24db filters, Im guessing closer the first one. Also worth noting that dnb sometimes sits a little higher up than dubstep when it comes to drums and midrange bass, and that a lot of Roni Size basslines sound toyish.

In short Id look for mud between 300 and 500hz and if you are losing your kicks in the bass Id look at the high end in the kicks attack to help it stand out rather than trying to fight the whole battle down in the 70-200hz area.

do you really leave bass frequencies all the way down to 70hz? it seems i was very badly mistaken, i tend to shit my pants and go crazy with eq's when i see any mid-bass going below like 120 hz
do you sidechain compress midbasses? or leave as is? i have a horrible fear of muddying bass and leave everything under the kick untouched for just sub, which could explain why some of my basses lack a lot of meat.

i have a question somewhat similar to what i was just asking. i find when im making mid basses i end up having to cut a lot out of the low end, it always puzzles me whether to leave it intact and layer the sub over it, or cut it then layer. im very afraid of using sub that isnt pure sine, for some reason.. like in distances massive tut he just uses the sub from his synthed bass, and doesnt cut and layer it underneath. should i have this fear?

[subfect]

EQ cuts, in every location necessary, high-pass at the highest note that your sub hits (if it's a pure sine wave).

[TherapyBE]

Soundcloud

how do you make this hollow, sucking bass you hear alot in dnb? i'm in love with that sound.

i think that was just a sine wave with some distortion, filters and alot of resampling not really sure if that helps but i want to dig out that file any way so i can probably shed some more light on it

That would be lovely. Sorry for the late response btw, kinda forgot about this thread.

[Insahn]

@ Sub question.

One thing I do is create my sub in massive distort it a tiny bit then add a lowpass about 40-45% all within massive. I then send the signal to 2 separate busses which I HPF and LPF respectively. This gives you an independant sub sound but also the higher harmonics which really makes it powerful

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!1ONE.

If you want powerful sub, you use a sine wave and LEAVE IT THE FUCK ALONE. See tune in my signature for an example. The ONLY problem with using a pure sine wave, is lack of harmonics meaning it won't be heard on shitty headphones or laptop speakers - but if you care about that, stop creating dungeonstep (yes I'm a little opinionated about this type of subgenre ). The only time you want to distort your sub for a dungeon track, is if it's the ONLY bass, and even then you should bus the sine to a separate channel, do what you want with it and high-pass it at around 60hz (depending on where your highest note for your sub hits). A lot of icicle tunes has this - basically a slightly overdriven sine wave on a separate channel, so that he still keeps the original sine in-tact and powerful as all fuck.

As for growls - this comes down to pure experimentation, but my best examples have been made with pitched down notched reeses that have had plenty of automation going on.

In regards to the soap dodgers question - notched reeses.

I wholeheartedly agree with this post. I think a lot of people are listening on headphones or a sub-par monitoring system without a sub and so they tend to think that they need to add harmonics of some kind to be able to hear the sub. It kind of depends on what types of systems you are creating your mix for. If you want your sub to be heard on car stereos, iphone speakers, headphones, etc then distorting your sub a little bit (i.e. distance tutorial) is the way to go, but then it actually ceases being just a sub imho. If your intention is for your track to be heard in a club setting it should be a sine wave with no distortion and no compression of any kind (everything else should be high passed around the sub to bring out the sub's weight). The sub should be felt more than heard in this case. This is kind of a no-no in the commercial mixing world as you'll see a lot engineers are concerned with every aspect of their track sounding great on a car stereo. For dungeon purposes I, personally, am not too worried about how my track sounds on my car's shitty speakers so I leave the sub alone (other than making sure its mono out of habit). I don't even low pass it. If its a sine wave you shouldn't have to. It has one fundamental frequency and no corresponding harmonics.

[Immerse]

no compression?? are you sure? i heard skream say in a redbull academy interview that compression on sub decreases the amount of excursion on the speaker, and he used to think said excursion was cool until he realized he could get more power out of compressed sub. maybe im remembering this wrong, but can you provide some evidence to support your statement?
source: http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/lect ... -skreamism
im gonna watch it now to check my facts

[Insahn]

no compression?? are you sure? i heard skream say in a redbull academy interview that compression on sub decreases the amount of excursion on the speaker, and he used to think said excursion was cool until he realized he could get more power out of compressed sub. maybe im remembering this wrong, but can you provide some evidence to support your statement?
source: http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/lect ... -skreamism
im gonna watch it now to check my facts

In short, compression should be used to tame transients so you can boost the overall sound or it can be used as an effect (distorting the sub so it can be heard on smaller systems), but if you kill the transients of the sub in your synth and then boost the sound you shouldn't need to compress it to make it louder. I won't presume to argue with Skream, the dude has way more street cred than I do, but I can't imagine its doing him much more than one of the two things I just mentioned

On a side note, I was listening to the mp3 someone posted from the Mau5hax event in Miami. Feed me aka Spor was talking about subs and he seemed to discourage compression as well. I could be mistaken, but that is how interpreted it. He was very matter of fact about it being "just a sine wave". Give it a listen in the Mau5hax thread.

[Immerse]

ive been compressing my subs pretty heavily, like 6:1, i kinda hope im wrong. because tbh my subs sounds a bit lifeless on my system. ive been searching for a while for the 'correct' if there is such a thing amount of compression on sub, if any at all.

[Insahn]

ive been compressing my subs pretty heavily, like 6:1, i kinda hope im wrong. because tbh my subs sounds a bit lifeless on my system. ive been searching for a while for the 'correct' if there is such a thing amount of compression on sub, if any at all.

I think as long as you are properly gain staging everything and your sub doesn't have a click at the beginning or some kind of 808 style transient than you shouldn't need to be compressed unless you want to add those extra harmonics so it can be heard on the radio, just make sure your levels are right and everything is high passed. Make sure to high pass all sounds (even high pitched hi-hats or shakers) because every little bit leaves more room for your sub to be powerful.

[charliefoy]

Whats the point in trying to make a sub heard on laptop speakers? Isnt the whole idea of a sub that you feel it rather than hear it?