How does health care in Europe work?

[wormcode]

So true, especially in my area (Appalachia). Why not tax fast food like we do cigs?

Haha, you know why they don't. TAX BAD! They associate it with socialism, which they in turn associate with communism. Most don't see a difference.
Generally I agree tax is bad the way it's currently used, how more taxes go to war related stuff than pretty much anything. But it can also be used for good, though the other things are constantly being cut back.

Some lobbyists/corps (heads of fast food chains) are pushing to allow people to use welfare food stamps to buy fast food. That should never be allowed. It's not even real food, you'll be hungry again in a couple of hours or less. Not to mention the chemicals inside fast food that you literally can become addicted to. You already can't use food stamps to buy alcohol or tobacco, it's supposed to be for necessities. Big Macs should not qualify. They can buy all the ingredients and make it themselves, and it will be healthier and last longer.

If they taxed the actual fast food corporations more, and that money went directly to a good cause (yeah right) like nutritional education, FDA stuff to critique the company's foods etc that might be better. They would in turn raise the prices of their food, but to be honest I would like that as I make it a point to never buy or eat big double cheeseburgers that cost less than my drink. There's a reason it's so cheap... people abuse the extreme low costs, and obesity soars.
They are private corps though and pretty much sell what they want (they are even allowed to have a certain amount of fecal and bacteria content), and there are people fighting hard for LESS regulations, not more.

This might seem to be going on a tangent, but make no mistake diet plays a HUGE role in healthcare costs, perhaps the biggest role.

[dubfordessert]

companies would move abroad even if we didnt tax them to reduce their variable capital costs. an excellent alternative method for companies to reduce their variable cost is to socialise services like customer support to the user community a la giff gaff. its a fucking joke. i dont help no tnuc out on that network hot damn

[Genevieve]

So true, especially in my area (Appalachia). Why not tax fast food like we do cigs?

*must contain anger*

Dude it's cool. I'm open minded toward all positions so I can make a fair comparison. I understand the arguement that healthcare pros may work harder if they had a mountain of debt over their heads. In my post I was just suggesting that if we tax fast food higher, prices would raise, and people might choose healthier alternatives instead.

It was self-aware and half tongue in cheek (I tend to go on libertarian rants), half real anger cuz it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine. But it's not the government's job to decide what people should eat or what's best for them, it's not their job to "take care" of citizens the way parents take care of their kids and it's not their job to mold behavior. It's borderline tyrannical. You want the same sociopaths who send 17 year old kids to die in Iraq and soon, Iran, how they should live?

[dubfordessert]

molding behaviour is an integral part of what especially consumer society but also society in general does. it's unrealistic (i'm an anarchist and i still think this) to strive for a model of society where behaviour is not "molded" by supraindividual forces whether they are economic or social, the best you can hope for is for those forces where possible to be directed by participatory democratic structures...

[Genevieve]

molding behaviour is an integral part of what especially consumer society but also society in general does. it's unrealistic (i'm an anarchist and i still think this) to strive for a model of society where behaviour is not "molded" by supraindividual forces whether they are economic or social, the best you can hope for is for those forces where possible to be directed by participatory democratic structures...

Voluntary co-operation and voluntary compromise are not the same as dictating behavior through taxation-slavery.

[Amber Trichome]

So true, especially in my area (Appalachia). Why not tax fast food like we do cigs?

*must contain anger*

Dude it's cool. I'm open minded toward all positions so I can make a fair comparison. I understand the arguement that healthcare pros may work harder if they had a mountain of debt over their heads. In my post I was just suggesting that if we tax fast food higher, prices would raise, and people might choose healthier alternatives instead.

It was self-aware and half tongue in cheek (I tend to go on libertarian rants), half real anger cuz it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine. But it's not the government's job to decide what people should eat or what's best for them, it's not their job to "take care" of citizens the way parents take care of their kids and it's not their job to mold behavior. It's borderline tyrannical. You want the same sociopaths who send 17 year old kids to die in Iraq and soon, Iran, how they should live?

I recognize how, for example, the war on drugs has created many negative side effects. However, those of us who are healthy and responsible pay higher premiums and taxes relieving people from bankrupty because others make bad choices. Society is paying lots for healthcare one way or another, it's finding the best method to handle it. I want social freedoms like gay marriage, but I am out on a limb about the pros and cons of economic regulation.

[AxeD]

A year at Uni cost me 90€ because I come from a one parent family. The usual non scholarship students had to pay around 400-500€ though. Still, If you compare the Uni costs with America and nations like Japan, I'm baffled. It's not that the standard is any lower...on the contrary.

God damn Belgium, here it's 1700 I'm at a private school though, so that'd be about 5400.

I think the highest incomes are taxed at around 55% here or something, way too low of course. There has been
a petition for people who want to pay more but it's not doing any good Also in the Netherlands, the higher your income
> the more you can deduct on your mortgage It's like a reverse progressive system.
Crank dat tax up. But yeah, if you don't agree with the way the government spends the money, I can see why
you'd like to pay less.

[Genevieve]

Then get rid of taxation all together.

[tyger]

i don't think taxing high-fat foods is going to work very well ... the tax doesn't focus on junk food very accurately ... real food is more about using fresh ingredients, preparing it properly, etc.

perhaps some of the ways the fast food industry prepare food should be banned ... no idea exactly what, though.

could have tighter controls on fast food ads, especially ones aimed at children ... ppl's behaviour is already being molded by corporate propaganda; i don't see why the state shouldn't be involved, at least to place some restrictions on the corporate propaganda ... restricting corporate propaganda is not quite the same thing as having state propaganda.

also, if the state is providing school meals, then it can't avoid promoting some kinds of food over others, so it might as well promote sensible diets.

i'm always suspicious of the state, but that shouldn't get in the way of all other considerations.

[Dystinkt]

i don't think taxing high-fat foods is going to work very well ... the tax doesn't focus on junk food very accurately ... real food is more about using fresh ingredients, preparing it properly, etc.

perhaps some of the ways the fast food industry prepare food should be banned ... no idea exactly what, though.

could have tighter controls on fast food ads, especially ones aimed at children ... ppl's behaviour is already being molded by corporate propaganda; i don't see why the state shouldn't be involved, at least to place some restrictions on the corporate propaganda ... restricting corporate propaganda is not quite the same thing as having state propaganda.

also, if the state is providing school meals, then it can't avoid promoting some kinds of food over others, so it might as well promote sensible diets.

i'm always suspicious of the state, but that shouldn't get in the way of all other considerations.

As somebody who's been through the state school system in England recently, the food was dreadful. portions are ridiculously small and overpriced, and often worse for me than what i'd eat normally. very different from the whole 'helthy school dinners' that the state often boasts about these days.
On the whole point of molding behaviour, im of the view that the state has no right to dictate to us the way we want to live, they for me are there to facilitate our lives, provided you contribute to the system in some way. If I work and pay tax, then its well within my right to smoke and drink imo

[espire]

It's a touchy subject, but I can feel for what Genevieve is saying:
Palliative care in Belgium too is a farse (especially for the older people). But perhaps that has more to do with the mindset of the average citizen, rather than healthcare itself.

Also, I forgot to mention, but of course, the biggest part of healthcare is payed for by employers rather than citizens, in case that wasn't obvious. We tax company's a lot (hence they move to the third world) so that in fact they are taking care of their employees.

In 2010 Electrabel paid like 4% taxes while their profit is 808 million euro. In 2009 their tax rate was 0.04%.
Bekaert fired about 600 people in Belgium this year, they paid €0.00 taxes in 2011 and even received about €17.7 million from our government.

It is in fact the other way round, citizens pay high taxes whereas our multinationals don't. (but I suppose this is no place to discuss politics in Belgium :p)

[idontreallygiveashit]

I've never saw a cockroach in the UK before. Then i visited a hospital in West London.

[joeki]

Bekaert I wasn't aware off. But Electrabel is no secret that it's a pseudo government company. They have a monopoly and are by far the biggest douchebags around. They can simply do what they want. How many people do they employ also? Not nearly enough to warrant the profits they make. They should all be put to the wall and shot.

[espire]

Agreed

[test_recordings]

The UK's expenditure on healthcare is also not quite 10%, quite a bit less than the USA's ~16% for better coverage.

Check out this article on expenditure on healthcare as a proportion of GDP for a comparison across nations: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... ending-gdp

The NHS was also the suprise winner for overall efficiency in a study of different nations healthcare systems! Check it: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/G ... itWall.pdf

It could be reorganised to be even more efficient, such as having centralised purchasing departments to reduce buying costs, but it generally is excellent.

[jaydot]

NHS FTW.

[nousd]

Oz, which is considered a relatively equitable & cost efficient system:

universal health care for citizens & certain types of migrant
medibank levy on taxable income is a set 1% (unlike the progressive tax schedule)
except for those under an income threshold (who pay nothing)
& those over an income threshold (around $80 000) that don't pay for private health insurance
(they pay an extra 0.5% surcharge)

The system is seperate from social security payments

When you visit a doctor you simply present your Medicare card.
some doctors (particularly in big corporatized practices) bulk bill
i.e. patient pays nothing, the practice directly charges the government,
but most practices take a payment from patient which is partly refundable by Medicare
(the % refunded amount depending on the procedure)

dental is not covered but increasing concern with the dental health of poorer people
has this on the government's agenda

some aspects of vision are claimable
but private healthcare cover is generally taken out to lessen cost of glasses, alternative therapies etc.

waiting list times vary considerably on location & procedure
there is a lot of political pressure to keep times down particularly for day admissions

to have costs refundable, specialists can only be visited with a referral from a doctor
& referral numbers are monitored to avoid over-referral
which is a danger when corporatized medicine includes general practitioners & specialists

there has to be oversight in such a system
but Australians are not overly paranoid about big brother when they can see the obvious benefits

[bassbum]

I dont think it right for people to make a profit from me being sick.

I love the NHS because if you go the other way you have the insurance company's and hospital making a profit from you. This make health care more expensive.

As somebody who's been through the state school system in England recently, the food was dreadful. portions are ridiculously small and overpriced, and often worse for me than what i'd eat normally. very different from the whole 'helthy school dinners' that the state often boasts about these days.

This is because the government soled all the canteens in schools to private company's and a company's priority is to make a profit not to sell good food. This is another thing I feel is not right, making a profit off of school kids.

Im a socialist. I think all major utility's and services should be owned by the state that way you can make a profit and reduce taxes or not make a profit and save the population loads of money on there day to day stuff.

Capitalism dosnt work in theory or practices. If you pay your workers £10 to make a tv and then sell it for £15 (to make a profit) your workers dont have the money to buy it back. You might think the the system is bigger than just one company but the thing is every company is doing it .So you can add it all up, say all the workers in the world get payed $1mill and all the products and sevices they made cost £2mill to buy because all the company's want to make a profit, everything is fucked and they cant buy them back.

This is where loans come in and they make the world go round so people can buy back the products they make. This just fucks things up even more because you have to pay interest your loan. This is why you have resections.

Also people that have loads of money piss me off. theres only so much money in the world and if you have all of it then everyone else dosnt. This is another problem withe the capitalist system.

End rant.

[bassbum]

Then get rid of taxation all together.

You're trolling or you're just stupid.

what would you suggest people with low incomes do if there house is on fire? Or if they get robbed? Or if they fall over and brake a leg? Are they meant to magically find the money to pay for private company's?

How are people with disabilities meant to live? Like someone who was born blind?

Whos going to pay for streetlamps? Or roads to be built and maintained?

Doing that would just separate the rich from the poor.

[bassbum]