Post your unpopular opinions.

[wolf89]

It's not maybe down entirely to forcing gender roles on people all the time though. As a really small kid I fucking loved playing with like pretend tool kits and stuff to do with cars and whatever. I liked stuff that was being aimed at boys because well I was one

[garethom]

Not sure the toy issue can be helped particularly. Would imagine if you're the sort of parent that is buying your kid the girly-girl toys from an early age, you'll shape her into that sort of girl anyway, whereas if you're not the sort that would shape her into a girly-girl, you probably wouldn't be buying them anyway.

[dubfordessert]

maybe you liked stuff that was aimed at boys because you found the stuff entertaining? nothing to do with the fact you were actually a boy. we liked toy cars and toolkits when we were kids but not because we were secret boys. but even things that have no need to ever be gendered, like tricycles or whatever, become...



VERSUS

[magma]

It's not maybe down entirely to forcing gender roles on people all the time though. As a really small kid I fucking loved playing with like pretend tool kits and stuff to do with cars and whatever. I liked stuff that was being aimed at boys because well I was one

Yeah, I do think there's probably a bit of a leaning to certain types of activity in boys and girls (judging by my brothers and friends kids, baby boys certainly seem to play-fight more from the minute they leave the womb), but I can't help but think a lot is 'programmed' (horrible word) incredibly early... I mean, is there really that much difference in the satisfaction of learning how to wire a plug and learning to make one of those paper fortune teller things? Why would boys learn to do one and girls the other? I don't think it's that boys brains like practical tasks more, I worry it's more that girls are taught from a young age to be satisfied by the more frivolous things in life... boys are always encouraged to find something vaguely useful in what they're doing. They get the same mental buzz, but they don't get the idea of maybe becoming an electrician one day.

It's not a blanket thing by any means though... plenty of boys come out weird and plenty of girls come out perfectly wonderful... I reckon it could be a lot better though. We might all be a bit saner...

(that said, i DO love my lipstick)

You're such a fucking automaton.

[HamCrescendo]

one of my best mates when I was a kid turned out to be gay. My mum said she always knew because he would always play the more feminine roles when I'd have friends around. Maybe it was a case of us wanting to play the more masculine roles and he didn't put as much emphasis on that and therefore was allocated the feminine stuff by default.

Not like his parents encouraged that shit either, mad catholic.

[dickman69]

good job making your friend gay

[Sonika]

good job making your friend gay

Tbf, I don't think there are many boys toys aimed at shopping or makeup

Idk, I'm sure there's merit to what Dfd's saying, but do you really think what toys they play with as a kid sends subliminal messages that determine how they feel they must act when they become adults?

[volcanogeorge]

its not subliminal messages at all, it's crafting behaviours at an early age.

buy a boy a scalextric set and he'll likely grow up to like cars. buy a girl a barbie and she'll probably grow up to like clothes and makeup.

iirc this is why they no longer have boys and girls floors in Hamleys

[kingldub]

EDIT Derp!

[Sonika]

buy a boy a scalextric set and he'll likely grow up to like cars. buy a girl a barbie and she'll probably grow up to like clothes and makeup.

But this is what I'm getting at, how much do you think it ACTUALLY crafts their behavior?

[kingldub]

I had toy cars as a kid, don't like cars as a man and used to wear make up as a teen.

[volcanogeorge]

buy a boy a scalextric set and he'll likely grow up to like cars. buy a girl a barbie and she'll probably grow up to like clothes and makeup.

But this is what I'm getting at, how much do you think it ACTUALLY crafts their behavior?

what do you want, a percentage?

there's no doubting that it shapes a child's behaviour in later life to some extent, but theres far too many variables from child to child to be able to give an exact amount.

nothing is cut and dried when it comes to this kind of thing

[dubfordessert]

good job making your friend gay

Tbf, I don't think there are many boys toys aimed at shopping or makeup

Idk, I'm sure there's merit to what Dfd's saying, but do you really think what toys they play with as a kid sends subliminal messages that determine how they feel they must act when they become adults?

subliminal? more like explicit. it's not just toys anyway, it's every aspect of socialisation, from childhood to adulthood. it's just toys to me are an interesting example because it is SO blatant and so beyond anything most people recognise as reality. but there are other examples, there's this relentless barrage of images and norms about what men and women should do and be like, in music, in films, whatever. a good little example is of the "men's magazines" shelf in tesco (cars, men's health, zoo, nuts, but also ALL the music magazines, the economist, the new scientist, and private eye. wtf? the women's section was celebrity bullshit, weight loss, food, babies, clothes. but someone put those magazines in those sections and thought that was fine. and their choice is derived from cultural norms, and broadcasts those norms to everyone else.)

lol at magma's reply to my lipstick thing - but it's true. even when other people my age wore make up i didn't, although i felt pressure to, and dress feminine and stuff. i used to read these stupid magazines and everything. part of the reason i didn't was money - my mum wasn't gonna buy me this shit. but when i got to uni my make up collection suddenly BALLOONED and literally the amount of toiletries i have is embarrassing. all of it mostly pointless. that said, i do enjoy using it, but i'm not sure how much of that is me being happy that i'm not an outsider anymore, and i can use this shit as well - and people don't generally consider me ugly.

there has to be an agenda to it that the creators have as an idea. not necessarily always explicit, but based on norms that they entertain and reproduce in their products. i don't buy this totally supply-side construction of consumption, whereby products are just whatever people who buy them want them to be. the producers of consumer goods are ultimately the ones who control the design and can greatly influence what actually exists in the market. they - to an extent - control choice. and when they advertise, when they are advertising shit that you actually don't need or want, they are trying to convince you that you want it. if that's by making you think you need to use this thing to be an acceptable person, to be an attractive woman, to be a real man, to be a cool kid, then so be it.

was reading some old kanye west interview yesterday describing how he became homophobic. you've all been kids. "gay" is the worst thing you can be. kids are absolute psychopaths when it comes to norms like this. but try and teach kids some awareness about what homosexuality means and why homophobic bullying is wrong and you're "indoctrinating" kids... hmmm

[Sonika]

Not sure what that last paragraph about homophobia had to do with anything, but as for the rest, yeah you got me. I pretty much agree

Seems like a bit of an unbreakable continuum - the societal "norms" continue to be perpetrated by the media etc, so people continue to follow them, so they continue be perpetrated....

[ultraspatial]

It's pretty much acceptable and catered for for boys to get interested in anything they want

Boys are not "allowed" to be into anything. You try telling a little boy that barbie and mlp are fucking awesome. Just like girls, boys are "trained" to like certain things, usually sports, action figures, comic books, certain computer games etc.

I find it a bit odd to like mlp because to me it's seems really fucking creepy, on the same level as the teletubbies, furries or hentai But people like what they like. There's no point in making a big deal out if it.

What I don't understand is why would someone want to define him/herself by just one thing they like. I get wanting to belong to a certain scene, cultural/artistic movement, community etc. but using only one thing you enjoy to define you is just stupid imo. I for one couldn't even decide what's the "most important" thing about me.

[garethom]

Seems like a bit of an unbreakable continuum - the societal "norms" continue to be perpetrated by the media etc, so people continue to follow them, so they continue be perpetrated....

This.

I know a lot of people in SNH always have answers, or at least they like to think so, but I just genuinely don't know what to do here.

The company I work for is always in the The Times (?) Top 50 Places For Women To Work, and the head of the UK is regularly in papers for interviews about women in top positions, but what impact is that going to make when the first 20 pages of papers are took up with women in too much make up, some of them famous literally for going on nights out on the TV or being married to a famous man, and getting rich/successful/famous off it, all the while, the biggest shows on TV are about becoming rich and famous off of almost zero effort. Why bother when you can doll yourself up and bag yourself one of them? Grim.

[herbs]

1 of my nieces loves fairies, and make up, and pink.
the other loves fairies, and diggers and cars.
my nephew loves anything he can bang extremely loud (takes after his uncle). he also loves anything the other two happen to be playing with at the time.

I agree that often we 'genderise' (is that a word? no...) out children a little too much, but I honestly think MOST girls love girly things, and MOST boys love blokey things. Obviously very difficult for me to prove without evidence...

But, I also personally think it's culturally important to teach the differences. Speaking from a mans point of view...I'll put it like this...I am a man. I am. I was not taught to be handy. My dad did all the DIY stuff, but never really taught me...I am now useless. BUT, I know there's a very good chance that when I settle down or whatever, I'm gonna have to do that shit. Now OK, you'll probably say "but why shouldn't the woman do it? that's sexist.."...trust me, if she wants to, she fucking...but the reality is, she fucking won't. And if I don't do it, who the fuck will?

Now again...it's a chicken and egg thing...but I think men and women are better at certain things than the other. This varies person to person, but on the whole I think it's true enough...all I'm saying is, if my nephew grows up to be a little namby pamby wuss of a boy...I will still love him, but I will feel I've failed him as an uncle.

[HamCrescendo]

in the same way boys toys are often very military/weaponry based. soldiers of the future.

I'm still intrigued by guns and just think that they're "cool" and I think that must have something to do with running around with cap guns playing james bond and harry roberts when i was a kid, even now I'm antiwar and know the evil they cause and all that carry on. I still have this fantasy of joining the durutti column and fucking up franco, which i suppose is just my military macho childhood aspirations adapting to my "new" student wanker beliefs.

[herbs]

One thing that does fuck me off is all the fucking advertising towards children. I was brought up in a time when I was a part of a generation that had everything. All the kids at school had mega drives and nice trainers etc. People started getting PC when I was mid-teens....

Nowadays it's even fucking worse. Pressure on parents to buy their 8 year old presents worth the best part of £100, as it's rammed down their throats every day on the ad break of CITV or whatever. That is one of the things that turns me into 'grumpy old man' around Christmas time.

[Sexual_Chocolate]

One thing that does fuck me off is all the fucking advertising towards children. I was brought up in a time when I was a part of a generation that had everything. All the kids at school had mega drives and nice trainers etc. People started getting PC when I was mid-teens....

Nowadays it's even fucking worse. Pressure on parents to buy their 8 year old presents worth the best part of £100, as it's rammed down their throats every day on the ad break of CITV or whatever. That is one of the things that turns me into 'grumpy old man' around Christmas time.

agreed.

when i was a kid, we used to beg for new action figures or cars, now kids the same age are asking for iphones!! FUCKING IPHONES!