Homophobia?

[magma]

I don't buy that at all. Just cause a young girl likes to play football doesn't mean she likes the girls.

Whaaaa?? Who said that?

Transgender =/= Homosexual

Then what does it mean for a child who doesn't even fully understand the concept of gender to KNOW he/she has the wrong body?

Gender isn't just about sex. Many transgender people are even asexual - being a Man is about a lot more than fancying women and being a Woman is about a lot more than fancying men.

People are much more complicated than all these assumptions about "Nature" allow.

[collige]

To say that there is no choice would imply a biological link, to which there is no credible evidence for after more than a century of various studies.

Or it's a result of certain circumstances during pregnancy/infancy/childhood/who the fuck knows. To go back to a very old argument, did you choose to be straight?

Absolutely. There is no innate boundary in my brain that would keep from jumpin some bone if I felt like it. Shit, I've kissed a dude before. But women, for a variety of reasons, intrigue me more, and physically attract me more.

I think you're confusing homosexuality with fucking guys.

[AllNightDayDream]

Excuse me but what? This is what I don't understand, and it happens a lot when I talk about this. Just because I don't see any evidence for homosexuality being a born trait doesn't mean I have a problem with it.

I didn't say you did - I was disagreeing that it's not natural. I think it's perfectly natural... if it wasn't natural, I don't know why uncivilised animals would do it. How has a giraffe been corrupted by the human gay agenda?

Even if it's not a "born" genetic combination that produces it, it's likely that the experiences that lead people to develop their sexual appetites happen so early in life that there's no effective choice involved.

Just like most of us are hopelessly, subconsciously hooked on sugar by the time we're old enough to set our own diets, most of us have already decided the sort of people we're likely to be attracted to fairly early. It's so subliminal that a "choice" seems absolutely crazy.

My best mate at secondary school came out when he was 15. I knew he was gay from the day I met him at the age of about 9. We never used to mention it, but it was just obvious.

I never said it was unnatural. The entire concept of "nature" is something I could go on for hours about (I don't believe anything "unnatural" can exist...) but that's for another thread. It's "natural" for there to be a few oddballs in society, people who tread off the beaten path, etc.

I agree experiences are key. But I disagree with your premise that we all know who we're attracted to early. How many stories are there of the run of the mill breadwinner who turned out gay in his middle age? I don't think it's set in stone, and it's not set in your genes or anything else. It's a choice you make by judgements from your experience. Your friend may be gay at 9, but what's to say later in his life he couldn't turn straight? I don't see any reason to believe it's not possible.

[collige]

No one said it wasn't possible (there's a lot of evidence that it happens more to women actually). What we're saying is that no one wakes up one day and says "I'm going to be attracted to people of my same gender from now on" i.e. makes a conscious choice.

[AllNightDayDream]

I don't buy that at all. Just cause a young girl likes to play football doesn't mean she likes the girls.

Whaaaa?? Who said that?

Transgender =/= Homosexual

Then what does it mean for a child who doesn't even fully understand the concept of gender to KNOW he/she has the wrong body?

Gender isn't just about sex. Many transgender people are even asexual - being a Man is about a lot more than fancying women and being a Woman is about a lot more than fancying men.

People are much more complicated than all these assumptions about "Nature" allow.

eh I disagree with your first couple sentences. There are generalities, but I think most of them have been fashioned by history and our society's interests. I don't think there are innately woman-like or man-like behaviors.

[garethom]

A lot of people trying to talk sense to somone who thinks the Sumerians overtook the Babylonias because of their superior mounted triceratops brigade.

[AllNightDayDream]

No one said it wasn't possible (there's a lot of evidence that it happens more to women actually). What we're saying is that no one wakes up one day and says "I'm going to be attracted to people of my same gender from now on" i.e. makes a conscious choice.

That's simplifying my argument quite a bit. You still pass judgement on whoever you are or aren't attracted to, and what criteria you use and how you interpret is left to a degree of choice.

[BLAHBLAHJAH]

Hey I thought "what a 6 paged crock of shit" so I gone did ritten poem

Real issue is the taking
Of the rainbow.
Y'all Gay motherfuckers
Gotta share.
Because I think a lot of "homophobes"
Inherently, are actually just annoyed at
Vapid greed and selfish claim-staking

[magma]

I never said it was unnatural. The entire concept of "nature" is something I could go on for hours about (I don't believe anything "unnatural" can exist...) but that's for another thread. It's "natural" for there to be a few oddballs in society, people who tread off the beaten path, etc.

You didn't use the word nature explicitly, but it was inferred (perhaps unfairly) from:

But I don't see how homosexuality is anything but a choice

Surely if something is a choice then it's not in the person's nature? If it's in their nature, it doesn't require a choice.

How many stories are there of the run of the mill breadwinner who turned out gay in his middle age? I don't think it's set in stone, and it's not set in your genes or anything else. It's a choice you make by judgements from your experience. Your friend may be gay at 9, but what's to say later in his life he couldn't turn straight? I don't see any reason to believe it's not possible.

Well, quite a few, but until we're in a society where people don't feel unneccesary pressure to not come out and to even spend their lives lying to themselves, we'll never get a truly clear picture. The classic image of the aging homophobe is one that has buried his own sexuality from himself for decades producing an angry, bitter old man... it doesn't seem that unlikely really.

My friend was lucky that he was going to a nice school where nobody would put up a fuss, but as a younger teenager he was more overblown than others on the "gay jokes"... perhaps if it had been two decades earlier or we went to a rougher school he'd currently be in an unhappy marriage to a woman he hated himself for not wanting to fuck... and going out on a Friday night to beat up the Homos to make himself feel better.

It's best to just let people get on with doing whatever they want with their bodies.

[collige]

No one said it wasn't possible (there's a lot of evidence that it happens more to women actually). What we're saying is that no one wakes up one day and says "I'm going to be attracted to people of my same gender from now on" i.e. makes a conscious choice.

That's simplifying my argument quite a bit. You still pass judgement on whoever you are or aren't attracted to, and what criteria you use and how you interpret is left to a degree of choice.

So you're saying what people are attracted to are based on criteria they choose and not the reverse of that?

Regardless, saying "homosexuality is a choice" in any way shape or form is completely nonsensical considering how many people have been ostracized by and isolated from their family and community as a result of this "choice".

[collige]

Hey I thought "what a 6 paged crock of shit" so I gone did ritten poem

Real issue is the taking
Of the rainbow.
Y'all Gay motherfuckers
Gotta share.
Because I think a lot of "homophobes"
Inherently, are actually just annoyed at
Vapid greed and selfish claim-staking

That's some sd5 type shit right there.

[AllNightDayDream]

I never said it was unnatural. The entire concept of "nature" is something I could go on for hours about (I don't believe anything "unnatural" can exist...) but that's for another thread. It's "natural" for there to be a few oddballs in society, people who tread off the beaten path, etc.

You didn't use the word nature explicitly, but it was inferred (perhaps unfairly) from:

But I don't see how homosexuality is anything but a choice

Surely if something is a choice then it's not in the person's nature? If it's in their nature, it doesn't require a choice.

A person's "nature" and choices are indistinguishable if you ask me.

Well, quite a few, but until we're in a society where people don't feel unneccesary pressure to not come out and to even spend their lives lying to themselves, we'll never get a truly clear picture. The classic image of the aging homophobe is one that has buried his own sexuality from himself for decades producing an angry, bitter old man... it doesn't seem that unlikely really.

My friend was lucky that he was going to a nice school where nobody would put up a fuss, but as a younger teenager he was more overblown than others on the "gay jokes"... perhaps if it had been two decades earlier or we went to a rougher school he'd currently be in an unhappy marriage to a woman he hated himself for not wanting to fuck... and going out on a Friday night to beat up the Homos to make himself feel better.

It's best to just let people get on with doing whatever they want with their bodies.

This is getting very anecdotal but the classic story as i've heard it has been of the man who did everything right, got good grades, got to a good school, worked hard, married, had kids, respectable job etc. and then everything just grows stale, and none of it turns out to be as fulfilling in the end as he thought it would be. Suddenly, he starts changing his priorities, habits, and somehow develops a refined taste for cock. Does that mean prior to this, when he had perfectly normal, healthy, satisfying heterosexual relationships he was actually gay? I don't think so.

I think it goes with what you were saying where you imply that "men act like this, women act like that" which frankly I believe is a crock of shit. Sexuality is a specific behavior, not a lifestyle. So when you are being sexually attracted to the opposite sex, you are being heterosexual. When you are attracted to the same sex, homosexual. Simple, really.

[AllNightDayDream]

No one said it wasn't possible (there's a lot of evidence that it happens more to women actually). What we're saying is that no one wakes up one day and says "I'm going to be attracted to people of my same gender from now on" i.e. makes a conscious choice.

That's simplifying my argument quite a bit. You still pass judgement on whoever you are or aren't attracted to, and what criteria you use and how you interpret is left to a degree of choice.

So you're saying what people are attracted to are based on criteria they choose and not the reverse of that?

Regardless, saying "homosexuality is a choice" in any way shape or form is completely nonsensical considering how many people have been ostracized by and isolated from their family and community as a result of this "choice".

Absolutely.

Maybe this might help. Have you ever had a "mancrush"? Even in the most innocent sense, where you very passively admit that another man is attractive for some reason or another? What reason was it? Whatever reason it happens to be is the product of your judgements of experience, thus your choice.

I don't understand the second point at all... Like from point A to point B, I don't see anything.

[PinUp]

No one said it wasn't possible (there's a lot of evidence that it happens more to women actually). What we're saying is that no one wakes up one day and says "I'm going to be attracted to people of my same gender from now on" i.e. makes a conscious choice.

That's simplifying my argument quite a bit. You still pass judgement on whoever you are or aren't attracted to, and what criteria you use and how you interpret is left to a degree of choice.

So you're saying what people are attracted to are based on criteria they choose and not the reverse of that?

Regardless, saying "homosexuality is a choice" in any way shape or form is completely nonsensical considering how many people have been ostracized by and isolated from their family and community as a result of this "choice".

Absolutely.

Maybe this might help. Have you ever had a "mancrush"? Even in the most innocent sense, where you very passively admit that another man is attractive for some reason or another? What reason was it? Whatever reason it happens to be is the product of your judgements of experience, thus your choice.

I don't understand the second point at all... Like from point A to point B, I don't see anything.

I seem to get a man crush on any balding man with a beard, doesnt make me gay though!

[collige]

The second point was completely unrelated, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Whatever reason it happens to be is the product of your judgements of experience, thus your choice.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Another analogy: do you choose what hand you write/throw/fap/whatever with?

[magma]

I think it goes with what you were saying where you imply that "men act like this, women act like that" which frankly I believe is a crock of shit. Sexuality is a specific behavior, not a lifestyle. So when you are being sexually attracted to the opposite sex, you are being heterosexual. When you are attracted to the same sex, homosexual. Simple, really.

Woah, read my other posts on gender... I'm certainly not saying that. All I was pointing out is that sexuality is a fairly separate issue from gender.

I don't believe that "Men act like this, women act like that" but I'm equally not blind enough to not see there are differences between the experience of a Man in society and a Woman in society. That makes transgenderism a serious issue - it IS important that you're viewed by society as the gender you feel you really are.

Humans exist in roles on several levels - although an individual may not feel any sort of way about their gender in their own head, they ARE treated and boxed up differently by the society that they have no choice about being part of; by their family, by their friends, by their advisors at school, by employers, even by the Police and Government. Some people (not me, luckily) fairly quickly know they're being put into the wrong boxes - really, it's not up to anyone but the owner of the brain in question to decide why that is.

Lots of people end up in the wrong boxes even when they are correctly gendered... society's roles for men and women are by no means perfect (see mine and DfD's conversation about toys in the unpopular opinions thread before you assume more of my opinions), but they DO exist and individuals have to deal with them all the time.

Essentially, whether there's "choice" over all these things is such a blurry area that I can't see why anyone would bother arguing for it. I'm sure it is possible to make a choice since sexuality is a spectrum (Hi, Genevieve), but I think it's also possible that people are born at one end of the spectrum and experience no choice - they're either strictly Heterosexual or strictly Homosexual.

I think the confusion comes in by people trying to find blanket rules for everyone. Just let them be... it really doesn't matter why they are what they are. It just matters that we're all nice to each other.

[JBoy]

A lot of people trying to talk sense to somone who thinks the Sumerians overtook the Babylonias because of their superior mounted triceratops brigade.

Wrong way around mate.

[magma]

Collige's point about choice is pretty pertinent, tbh. Why would someone make a "choice" to live a lifestyle that would get them ostracised by society, locked up and possibly put to death?

During the Spanish civil war, homosexuals were made to dig their own graves, castrated alive, forced to eat their own genitals and then shot as they stood by the hole they'd dug. People were still gay. Is that evidence of a choice? Really? Wouldn't centuries of barbaric treatment have stamped out homosexuality forever if it was actually a choice?

[AllNightDayDream]

I seem to get a man crush on any balding man with a beard, doesnt make me gay though!

nah, just makes you a bit queer

The second point was completely unrelated, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Whatever reason it happens to be is the product of your judgements of experience, thus your choice.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Another analogy: do you choose what hand you write/throw/fap/whatever with?

To the analogy, I think no. There are genetic correlations with handed-ness.

A homosexual who comes out and is ostracized unfortunately goes through that pain because of society's narrow-mindedness. That has absolutely no bearing on whether it is a choice or not.

The things you value, and by extension the things you would find attractive in someone else, come from your experiences and how you react and/or perceive them, which influences the choices you make. They all exist in tandem, making them one larger entity which is your environmental (as opposed to inherited) personality.

[collige]

That has absolutely no bearing on whether it is a choice or not.

It most certainly does because most people don't like ruining their lives.

The things you value, and by extension the things you would find attractive in someone else, come from your experiences and how you react and/or perceive them,

Okay, then, what about experiences that happen when I am too young to make proper decisions? For example,

Have you ever had a "mancrush"? Even in the most innocent sense, where you very passively admit that another man is attractive for some reason or another? What reason was it? Whatever reason it happens to be is the product of your judgements of experience, thus your choice.

What if my mancrush was my first romantic interest ever?