Knife Party and the Loudness War

[Swelly]

even destroy them with lazers which is a 4x4 tune has a heavy fuckin sub under the kicks

Seriously man, anyone that's heard that track in a club setting knows it DESTROYS the system.

But anyway, here are a few examples of the totally nonexistent Knife Party sub. It doesn't take a trained ear to hear that there's clearly a separate sub layer to all the basses.
1:18
0:53
0:25
1:05

thanks for the links! haha, i'm just guessing these other people are listening on their laptop speakers or godforbid...beats by dre.

[twilitez]

How do you get of the loudness war?
Basically, you dont, unless your making rock, jazz, or classical stuff.
Everything dubstep, dnb or techno is quite often a little squashed, and you know why?
It doesnt really matter. The essence of a good growl bass is extreme modulation and your basic synth pushed to the limit through an fx chain, and probably limited on its own bus(ses). The essence of a hard hitting techno kick is distortion and compression and eq, and layering, then probably a limiter on its own bus(ses). Since the modulation happening to certain sounds before they hit the master is already quite extreme, its kind of pointless to worry about the dynamics. Why would you want to preserve all the dynamics of your kick (just as an example) in any of these genres anyway? It needs to hit the 'right spot' at its strongest frequencies and the rest is expendable.

The way i see it is this: if your doing mainly acoustic music and work out of the box alot, it matters. You are trying to give every element its own spot in the mix and try to preserve transients.

If your doing 'EDM': usually you are trying to make your mix as powerful as possible and try to glue things together, because this always has the best impact on a dancefloor. If you wait for the DJ to turn it into the red, your worse off then making it loud yourself. Unless you are not making music that is supposed to be danced to, this is just logical really.

[wormcode]

thanks for the links! haha, i'm just guessing these other people are listening on their laptop speakers or godforbid...beats by dre.

That's their main demographic haha. Headphone/ipod music. It's easier to appeal to a bigger sales market through the loudness war because the original dubstep and so-called 'bass music' doesn't translate well outside of systems, so the high end 'midrange cack' + extreme loudness helped for a headphones type setting which is where a lot of newcomers (who are largely still too young for clubs) get into it. But anyway I've never heard tunes like this played out live myself. I'm not one for festivals which is where the majority of the live vids seem to take place.

[mikeyp]

thanks for the links! haha, i'm just guessing these other people are listening on their laptop speakers or godforbid...beats by dre.

That's their main demographic haha. Headphone/ipod music. It's easier to appeal to a bigger sales market through the loudness war because the original dubstep and so-called 'bass music' doesn't translate well outside of systems, so the high end 'midrange cack' + extreme loudness helped for a headphones type setting which is where a lot of newcomers (who are largely still too young for clubs) get into it. But anyway I've never heard tunes like this played out live myself. I'm not one for festivals which is where the majority of the live vids seem to take place.

i think that's where a lot of the difference of opinions come from with a lot of things around the forum and in the scene in general. some people never go see things live, some people that's all they do so there's a big gap of misunderstanding of where someone's coming from. i'm on the side of going to see these artists on huge systems. bigger than club systems like i believe a lot of guys (especially guys in the uk and europe) do. just something ive noticed i think out there more people see dubstep in clubs rather than here in the states where your average show is like 2,000+ people in a giant theater with MASSIVE systems, and then you get to your summer festivals which are even larger. anyway, never seen knife party but i've heard their shit on these systems and if you say there's no sub you're just a fool. same with skrillex (yeah i'm going there) seen him twice on these systems. you might say "well yeah there's sub bass because there are like 30 fucking subs what do you expect" ... um my response is that this music is made for that shit so what's the big deal? if the compromise is not having as much sub in the mix so that it's more appealing when you're not at a show and then upping the power in a live setting is what's needed to make it stand out then who really cares?

[wormcode]

i think that's where a lot of the difference of opinions come from with a lot of things around the forum and in the scene in general. some people never go see things live, some people that's all they do so there's a big gap of misunderstanding of where someone's coming from. i'm on the side of going to see these artists on huge systems. bigger than club systems like i believe a lot of guys (especially guys in the uk and europe) do. just something ive noticed i think out there more people see dubstep in clubs rather than here in the states where your average show is like 2,000+ people in a giant theater with MASSIVE systems, and then you get to your summer festivals which are even larger. anyway, never seen knife party but i've heard their shit on these systems and if you say there's no sub you're just a fool. same with skrillex (yeah i'm going there) seen him twice on these systems. you might say "well yeah there's sub bass because there are like 30 fucking subs what do you expect" ... um my response is that this music is made for that shit so what's the big deal? if the compromise is not having as much sub in the mix so that it's more appealing when you're not at a show and then upping the power in a live setting is what's needed to make it stand out then who really cares?

Well it's not an issue of going to see things live, just in the last 3 or 4 months I've seen Coki, Mala, Pearson sound, Vivek, and that's only 'dubstep' (Pearson played some too) not counting strictly techno or house. But yes these were clubs with not very many people. I've always preferred a much smaller place/intimate setting and house party type things. Just a matter of interest I suppose. Not into arena shows with thousands, though I've been to a few of those in the past. Thunderdome type stuff. These days none of the artists I go out of my way to see play that style of music, so I have never really heard it live. I'm not the one saying it doesn't have sub bass, but it's surely not the emphasis. It has just enough. I saw the same thing happen in drum n bass in the early 2000s when jumpup/clownstep took the mainstream. The music is just focused elsewhere like on melodies and crazy synth sounds, just as when the wobbles first started getting out of hand in 2002 or so, the sub bass became an afterthought in a lot of dnb.

[mikeyp]

that's true that it may not be as much of a focus as other elements of the music, but one thing i've noticed is that in these settings the other elements don't stand out as much as they do anywhere else. fuck me for using another skrillex reference but i've probably heard cinema like ten times on these systems and it's amazing how not piercing and forward the high pitched sounds are. it really sounds like those wobs are just complementing the sub, honestly. like i said that's probably a product of the power of the subs outweighing the rest of the system, but i'm fine with that.

[Augment]

all fair points but Sparxy definitely knows whats up with regards to bass
I don't know the tunes here in question not gonna look for them
but I'm guessing what he meant was there's no instrument/layer/sound source in the tunes that is a dedicated sub bass, written specifically to drive a woofer
Other synth basses contain sub frequencies, n of course you're gonna see em on a spectral analyzer (don't listen to music with your eyes doe) -- in bass music you usually wanna take the sub freq's OUT of a synth bass patch so that your sub won't be crowded
It's a whole other layer of music

Maybe these knife partiers have sub, maybe not but man like sparxy know what he's talking about so i would guess the mixes just ain't up to par basswize
and that does make it easier to get the rest of the track louder for sure

Sparxy is in this case wrong man, sorry to say. Knife party has dedicated sub tracks. They are helping to get the brickwalled shape of the waveform. If they had taken out the sub, the song would have more dynamics, i think. Atleast it wouldnt be brickwalled

[Sparxy]

I'm not wrong. There's very little sub in their tunes, fact. I fully understand this largely comes down to personal preference so i'm not really knocking it, their tunes aren't really built to rattle your chest, they're built so sweaty teenagers can mosh.

@Blinkeso just cuz the waveform is brickwalled doesn't mean it has lots of sub. It means its compressed to fuck.

Also LOL at whoever called me a hater, if you read a few posts up you'll see me praising Rob Swire's technical ability. He's amazing, that's undeniable. I personally find that he comes across like a bit of a sanctimonious prick, but perhaps I should keep my personal views to myself in the future. Who knows, maybe i'll meet Rob in the future and my mind will change, i'm never one to hold a grudge but I do think he's a dick at the moment.

Coming back to the sub bass thing... I'm not wrong at all. I recently heard "Bonfire" in the car and was just shocked at the lack of emphasis on sub. I listen to mixes all day, I drive alot so I know what a proper sub sounds like in my car. In Bonfire there was next to nothing coming through. The sub is barely audible and you certainly can't feel it at all. They place less emphasis on the sub, it'll take up very little headroom so they can get their overall mix sounding much louder than a tune that has proper sub. The emphasis is placed on the mids, drums and arrangement. I guess what i'm saying is I prefer tunes that place more of an emphasis on the sub, as after all, isn't that what bass music is all about?

Listen to this


The listen to this, and then tell me which one has more sub. I know what I prefer! I could've cheated and just brought out "Goat Stare" but I thought nah, i'll keep this fair and go for something that's still quite tear-outy

[jrisreal]

Wasnt hearing much sub on either. Definitely more on the Distance one...but still not much. Listening on two decent 12" subs...maybe its just that I had the volume somewhat low

[Sparxy]

Wasnt hearing much sub on either. Definitely more on the Distance one...but still not much. Listening on two decent 12" subs...maybe its just that I had the volume somewhat low

I just went to Distance's YouTube and picked out a random tune I knew was fairly ruff. TBF to both though, YouTube videos are hardly ever going to really show off sub bass, whenever I put my tunes on YouTube the compression seems to completely fuck the sub.

To everyone who says they've heard the Knife Party tracks on a big system and there is lots of sub... sure, the system is huge and everything is fucking loud. But go to SYSTEM with Mala and Vivek - just try it, only then will you truly know what sub bass is like on a big system. You're meant to feel it as much as you can hear it. Fair play if you wanna go melt your brain and mosh out but when I hear that stuff it just feels like it's missing something down there.

PS i'm just gonna leave this here...

[mikeyp]

To everyone who says they've heard the Knife Party tracks on a big system and there is lots of sub... sure, the system is huge and everything is fucking loud.

- i agree, and i mentioned that.

But go to SYSTEM with Mala and Vivek - just try it, only then will you truly know what sub bass is like on a big system. You're meant to feel it as much as you can hear it. Fair play if you wanna go melt your brain and mosh out but when I hear that stuff it just feels like it's missing something down there.

- again, I agree and i've mentioned many times here on the forums that I don't believe in "coloring a sub" or any of that because it's meant to be felt and not heard. i think subs (should) express emotions through physical feelings throughout your body rather than through your ears. i just went and watched a video from the last show i was at that I believe has those sub characteristics which was bassnectar. i know he comes off leaning more to the bro side but i've seen him five times and his live shows are really something else.

watch the first few minutes of this. i know it's a live recording but the quality is pretty decent. most recordings like this where it's all distorted from the sub it just sounds like shit and you know the sub really wasn't that loud, but here it's pretty accurate to the feel of things. the sub just surrounds the entire place and it's beautiful.




anyway you just quirked me when you were saying there was "literally no sub" in knife party stuff. we both know that's not true, and even for the style there's still a whole lot. comparing them to anything you've posted is like comparing apples and potatoes.

[Sparxy]

How do you get of the loudness war?
Basically, you dont, unless your making rock, jazz, or classical stuff.
Everything dubstep, dnb or techno is quite often a little squashed, and you know why?
It doesnt really matter. The essence of a good growl bass is extreme modulation and your basic synth pushed to the limit through an fx chain, and probably limited on its own bus(ses). The essence of a hard hitting techno kick is distortion and compression and eq, and layering, then probably a limiter on its own bus(ses). Since the modulation happening to certain sounds before they hit the master is already quite extreme, its kind of pointless to worry about the dynamics. Why would you want to preserve all the dynamics of your kick (just as an example) in any of these genres anyway? It needs to hit the 'right spot' at its strongest frequencies and the rest is expendable.

The way i see it is this: if your doing mainly acoustic music and work out of the box alot, it matters. You are trying to give every element its own spot in the mix and try to preserve transients.

If your doing 'EDM': usually you are trying to make your mix as powerful as possible and try to glue things together, because this always has the best impact on a dancefloor. If you wait for the DJ to turn it into the red, your worse off then making it loud yourself. Unless you are not making music that is supposed to be danced to, this is just logical really.

You are completely missing the point. I'm not sure if you really know what you're talking about tbh. I don't want a "dynamic kick" lol that's a bit silly really isn't it? But I certainly think each element in a tune has its place in the mix dynamically. For example the way a reverb tail dies, or how a bass with delay on it fades slowly into the background. You might have tom drums hitting at different velocities for example. If you're squashing the shit out of the tune it means none of that matters, and it means the tune lacks real character in my opinion.

The mix is what provides the punch and the power, not the post-processing "squash". This is done purely to make it fucking loud. Why do you really need it that loud? I'm not stupid, I know that compression and limiting plays a part in anyone's mastering chain but I don't understand the need to completely dick it with a limiter purely for a bit more perceived loudness. You can hear it as well, all the elements in the tune sound have the same presence as each other.

Again, i'm fully aware this is subject to personal opinion, but personally i'd rather hear the tune in its entirety, listen to the details and appreciate a production for what it is rather than just have my ears raped. I don't get it is all im saying, there are no real winners in this 'loudness war'.

I'm also quite aware this thread is now full of Knife Party supporters so this is a pretty pointless debate for me really.

[mikeyp]

I'm also quite aware this thread is now full of Knife Party supporters so this is a pretty pointless debate for me really.

nah i'm totally on the knife party side of this, but it is personal opinion and you're right with just about everything.

[Sparxy]

even destroy them with lazers which is a 4x4 tune has a heavy fuckin sub under the kicks

Seriously man, anyone that's heard that track in a club setting knows it DESTROYS the system.

But anyway, here are a few examples of the totally nonexistent Knife Party sub. It doesn't take a trained ear to hear that there's clearly a separate sub layer to all the basses.
1:18
0:53
0:25
1:05

Those tracks are horribly un-original. It's like they heard Skrillex one Radio 1, saw how much money he was making at raves and thought "We can do that, lets get a piece". Just because its amazingly produced doesn't mean it stands up as good music.

And I don't care what anyone says, there is not enough sub in any of these tunes for me.

[LouisG]

I agree Rob Swire is skilled but he's really producing this for his wallet it sticks out like a sore thumb - I guess what's sad is unlike Mala, Goldie, Roni Size etc. he will never go down as like a genres pioneer because he hasn't grown.

I see knife party as a huge step back for him - I was never a huge Pendulum fan but I could appreciate it as unique and original to an extent.

As far as the loudness war goes I feel nothing is more important than a dynamic mix I don't know how to describe it other than 'natural' - it just sounds right and feels right when you here a big tune focused on the sub through a big system.

And for the record when you're chatting about listening through ipods and the like I can still listen to a sub heavy tune like because the space almost implies the sub it's like a hearing blind spot - you're mind kind of fills it in for you - I would say this to any that thinks it can't be done you have to really conciously listen and I swear the power of the sub is still implied on most household system or headphones.

[skimpi]

I agree Rob Swire is skilled but he's really producing this for his wallet it sticks out like a sore thumb - I guess what's sad is unlike Mala, Goldie, Roni Size etc. he will never go down as like a genres pioneer because he hasn't grown.

I see knife party as a huge step back for him - I was never a huge Pendulum fan but I could appreciate it as unique and original to an extent.

As far as the loudness war goes I feel nothing is more important than a dynamic mix I don't know how to describe it other than 'natural' - it just sounds right and feels right when you here a big tune focused on the sub through a big system.

And for the record when you're chatting about listening through ipods and the like I can still listen to a sub heavy tune like because the space almost implies the sub it's like a hearing blind spot - you're mind kind of fills it in for you - I would say this to any that thinks it can't be done you have to really conciously listen and I swear the power of the sub is still implied on most household system or headphones.

I dont get this, I can hear a sub perfectly fine on earphones

[Sparxy]

Ive never encountered earphones that can accurately reproduce a 40hz signal. i would think its actually impossible given the size of the drivers

[Attila]

Who cares about accurate reproduction? On earbuds its easy to hear the sub track. By what you're implying the only way to hear sub bass is through your personal studio monitors. The point is if it's easy to hear on something so small, then on any system it'll clearly be there.

[VirtualMark]

Who cares about accurate reproduction?

Seriously? I'd have thought that accurate reproduction is the most important thing when monitoring.

[Attila]

Thatd be relevant if we were monitoring, but you don't need a flat response or even a good quality speaker to hear if sub is present.

That said, obviously Knife Party isn't going to hit the same "holy shit the titanics sinking" lows of deeper tracks, which as stated before is because both genres have different sonic objectives.