On heavily sample-based production

[Maxxan]

First off, sorry if this has been discussed before, kind of hard topic to search on...

Now, lately I've been obsessed with these really slick glitchy hip-hoppy productions like Gramatik, Pretty Lights etc, video for reference.



But I'm thinking, where do these people get their samples? Do they simply rip some stems off of random old record and then try to get it licensed through their labels? How do you start out doing that, since I imagine it would be pretty hard to pull off unsigned. Or is it just about making clever bootlegs hoping to get noticed?

Pay bands to play original compositions for them? Sample packs? Super-good vst libraries? What's up? Anyone know how this works?

Been puzzling me for a while.

[mthrfnk]

Afaik for people on the Pretty Lights label most of it is old records, films and commercials/tv stuff, Pretty Lights himself seems to have a pretty extensive record collection. They get around licensing most of by giving away every release for free.

[Maxxan]

Legally it's still not allowed though? You mean they sample whatever they feel like without permissions and the labels leave them alone simply because there's no potential profit from a lawsuit?

If someone, say me, was to do the same, wouldn't that get copyrighted in an instant like all the SC bootlegs are?

It seems like the samples are too high quality to be ripped straight from a record though, is it even possible to extract individual stems with such high quality from a full mix? I'm really bad at this myself so I wouldn't know but it feels unlikely. Or do they somehow get hold of the individual stems?

Edit: Also, these releases are on spotify, which pays the artists, wouldn't that be an issue? Seems kinda dodgy to me is all, not saying you're wrong or whatever. Just unlikely since every in the business is a greedy asshole.

[wormcode]

Never heard anything from Pretty Lights besides those old bootleg remixes, I think Pink Floyd and Nirvana or something? Anyway they get it any way they can, usually not from a legitimate source I'm sure. There are leaked track stems and such floating around the internet and private trading scenes from loads of famous artists. It's still illegal even if they don't charge, but they are less likely to get into trouble. Such is the nature of bootlegs. Some people try to claim the fair use law, but that's pretty much BS.

Btw spotify doesn't pay artists shit for cash.

[Maxxan]

Amazing stuff if you ask me, check this video out if you get the chance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv3Sj3Qdhx8

Anyway, yeah that's almost what I reckoned but it still seems unlikely since the scene is so large, PL is still pretty famous.

And on spotify, I know it's small sums. But it's still money, you'd think stuff like that would get taken down.

[wormcode]

Not into that kinda stuff. Good production though.
Seems he's way more famous than I thought so it's possible he is clearing samples these days. If he's not, he definitely should be. I really doubt he's as skint as when he started out lol.

[drake89]

Have you never heard of drum breaks? I'm sure a lot of the referenced artists use breaks as well as other drums. It helps a lot if you have a ton of breaks to look through and pick n choose kicks n snares you like. As far as copywrite they are not going to be able to tell if you used a drum hit from
Some record from the 70s. People use incidental samples in billboard tracks without reprocussions.

[aeser]

they generally only go after you for sampling if your music is making money because then they can get a cut, people generally don't want to spring for lawyers and court costs to just stop someone from using a sample of their stuff in a free internet track as there's nothing to gain for them.

which is why small artists can get away with sampling like crazy but then if they get bigger they'll be in lawsuit hell. also the original artist has to become aware that you sampled them which if you're a tiny underground artist this is not likely.

[wormcode]

Have you never heard of drum breaks? I'm sure a lot of the referenced artists use breaks as well as other drums. It helps a lot if you have a ton of breaks to look through and pick n choose kicks n snares you like. As far as copywrite they are not going to be able to tell if you used a drum hit from
Some record from the 70s. People use incidental samples in billboard tracks without reprocussions.

There was a court case long ago that set the precedent that you cannot claim copyright on a drum sound itself. I think it bled over into an instrument 'stab' as well. As in you can only claim copyright on compositions and melodies. No doubt varies by country, but it's probably similar.

@aeser, it's not the artist you have to worry about. Very few artists people sample actually own their music anyway. It's the publishers/labels/copyright holders to worry about. Some of them have entire legal teams of people who sit online and look for copyright infringements. James Brown famously had a team of people doing that. With things like whosampled.com it's never been easier for them.

[aeser]

Have you never heard of drum breaks? I'm sure a lot of the referenced artists use breaks as well as other drums. It helps a lot if you have a ton of breaks to look through and pick n choose kicks n snares you like. As far as copywrite they are not going to be able to tell if you used a drum hit from
Some record from the 70s. People use incidental samples in billboard tracks without reprocussions.

depends, most drum breaks people use are the same 5 big ones everyones been using since samplers were invented and people very much can tell which track it's from. some of them are "considered" public domain like the amen break and funky drummer break and so on as the original artists are aware it's been sampled literally hundreds of thousands of times and have not ever tried to seek compensation and have been interviewed about it and said they were cool with it being used. wheras for example, other people, like the beatles, are very famously NOT ok with any of their work being sampled.

technically the winstons and james browns estate could sue the living shit out of the music industry and win because of how many people have used their copyrighted material, but that would also be a daunting undertaking.

[wormcode]

Actually people are actively being sued for using the Amen break. It's definitely not public domain. They started suing about 4 or 5 years ago. Not The Winstons though, they don't own it. To license it, they ask for a flat fee, or a percentage of sales. The flat fee was something like £1500 or so. Some sample companies also had to recall a lot of sample CDs to remove it from their CDs and remanufacture it. There was a whole controversy over it as it was technically the fault of a forum member on a certain dnb forum who contacted the publisher for an interview/documentary and made him aware of the sampling. I do recall the publisher saying he wouldn't attempt to sue independent dnb artists, but there's been a couple of cases I know of in the dnb scene. Granted, they are fairly big names.

[alphacat]

Don't take any legal advice off a music forum unless it's a music law forum...

I've heard it said - nothing to trust completely mind you - If your record sells less than 5000 copies or so, it's probably too below-the-radar for most copyright holders to catch wind of. Some copyright holders (Disney, Lucas, etc.) will be more dickish about it than others and have full time legal departments that do nothing but scour the internet for violations (which means money for them if they can successfull prosecute.)

But basically if your sample sources are obscure enough and your listenership small enough (as is the case here) then it's not gonna make waves. Lawyers are sharks and sharks don't go after small fry typically. They wait until they're nice and fat and go in for the kill...

[mthrfnk]

Legally it's still not allowed though? You mean they sample whatever they feel like without permissions and the labels leave them alone simply because there's no potential profit from a lawsuit?

That's the theory I guess, who's really going to chase down an artist for releasing a track which contains a (no doubt heavily processed) sample of their music when the artist using the sample is not making any profit... no one is.

If someone, say me, was to do the same, wouldn't that get copyrighted in an instant like all the SC bootlegs are?

No I really doubt it, the guys on the PL, specifically thinking of Gramatik, use a lot of samples per track - it's not like they've made a track and are laying over lady gagas vocals. The fact that theres so much variety and processing involved of the samples makes me think you'd quite easily get away with uploaidng a similar track.

It seems like the samples are too high quality to be ripped straight from a record though, is it even possible to extract individual stems with such high quality from a full mix? I'm really bad at this myself so I wouldn't know but it feels unlikely. Or do they somehow get hold of the individual stems?

Multi track stems are available for a lot of popular tracks from the 60s-90s, if you know where to look online. However I'd make a bet nearly all of PL's stuff is just ripped well, processed well, and mixed well. Considering his whole setup revolves around vinyl sampling, hardware effects and analogue systems I doubt he just logs on to some filesharing site to grab some vocal hooks.

[twilitez]

Its such a vague and blurry subject and besides sampling copyright in general gets more confusing with the day, bringing some very nasty precedents to life in the process. I used to take an interest in it and wrote a couple of articles about copyright taking a very wrong direction recently but after a deafening silence i dropped it. I realize the need for a form of 'intellectual property' rights in a sense but its a double edged sword. Where do you draw the line between an authentic creation, and somethings thats not that?

I get the feeling its all a little too arbitrary, and mostly too much of a money game that sees the suits win a little too often.

[Maxxan]

Yeah I'm somewhat familiar with the legal issues on copyright etc, and while it is hard to determine from what I've gathered the case seems to be that if someone just bothers to go after you they'll most likely win.

What I'm mainly interested in how these artists practically go about aquiring rights and sampling. The opinions seem to differ with some people saying they publish without permission and some saying it's licensed, so that really doesn't answer my question. Does anyone actually have any real insight on these artists and how their labels work? Any stories? (Not bashing on those of you who've posted, I'm very grateful for all the input and it's very interesting. But it would be fun to know for sure instead of just speculation)

And also, maybe somewhat off topic but since it's my thread whatever, does anyone know where to start if I wanted to improve my skills in sampling? I'm completely fascinated by this style of music, and also electro swing and similiar styles with a lot of influence and samples from old 30-60's music. Like I said before, is it possible to extract certain elements of a track, maybe by very careful EQ:ing and masking the undesired elements, or is it simply about patience when selecting samples and finding a snippet without conflicting elements and then mixing it as well as possible? I've been doing some research on, for example Gramatik, and it seems like he's using only certain pieces of a track. Someone mentioned multi-track recordings, anyone got any suggestions on where to find these if they do exist?

And once again, thanks a lot for all your replies guys, you've been really helpful!

[ehbes]

And also, maybe somewhat off topic but since it's my thread whatever, does anyone know where to start if I wanted to improve my skills in sampling? I'm completely fascinated by this style of music, and also electro swing and similiar styles with a lot of influence and samples from old 30-60's music. Like I said before, is it possible to extract certain elements of a track, maybe by very careful EQ:ing and masking the undesired elements, or is it simply about patience when selecting samples and finding a snippet without conflicting elements and then mixing it as well as possible? I've been doing some research on, for example Gramatik, and it seems like he's using only certain pieces of a track. Someone mentioned multi-track recordings, anyone got any suggestions on where to find these if they do exist?

And once again, thanks a lot for all your replies guys, you've been really helpful!

for genres your gonna be looking at soul, funk, hip hop, jazz...what ill do is go on http://www.whosampled.com search for an artist, see who they sampled, youtube that artist, and get lost in related videos

[wormcode]

The multitracks are on dodgy sites that probably shouldn't be linked here. It's pretty much warez. For example people ripped the audio from games like Guitar Hero which were available on the game as multitracks because of how the game works. Others have been actually leaked by people who worked on the albums, maybe out of revenge or some kind of personal vendetta. As for finding samples: I am a big fan of cratedigging. Just go to some music shops and listen to music. Grab some genre you've never heard of, throw it on. Look for weird looking album covers, listen to it. Doesn't have to be vinyl necessarily. I've done it with tapes, CDs, laserdiscs lol. Also, yes you can extract parts of songs but it varies GREATLY, sometimes it doesn't work at all. Look into software like Roland R-Mix and Melodyne.

Maybe you will be interested in this documentary Copyright Criminals:

[mthrfnk]

What I'm mainly interested in how these artists practically go about aquiring rights and sampling. The opinions seem to differ with some people saying they publish without permission and some saying it's licensed, so that really doesn't answer my question. Does anyone actually have any real insight on these artists and how their labels work? Any stories? (Not bashing on those of you who've posted, I'm very grateful for all the input and it's very interesting. But it would be fun to know for sure instead of just speculation)

Honestly like I said before I doubt alot of PL's early stuff is cleared at all, since he started from broke and gave all his music away for free on his own label. A guy who's broke and is making no money for releases isn't going to go knocking on record labels doors asking for clearance for a hook used in some song from the 60s...

Having said that, his upcoming album apparently includes no external samples, from what I understand he's made samples/hooks/beats etc and had then cut to dubs and has then resampled them from the vinyl to arrange his tracks.

And also, maybe somewhat off topic but since it's my thread whatever, does anyone know where to start if I wanted to improve my skills in sampling? I'm completely fascinated by this style of music, and also electro swing and similiar styles with a lot of influence and samples from old 30-60's music. Like I said before, is it possible to extract certain elements of a track, maybe by very careful EQ:ing and masking the undesired elements, or is it simply about patience when selecting samples and finding a snippet without conflicting elements and then mixing it as well as possible? I've been doing some research on, for example Gramatik, and it seems like he's using only certain pieces of a track. Someone mentioned multi-track recordings, anyone got any suggestions on where to find these if they do exist?

Go to a charity store, buy a shit ton of vinyls, try and record snippets that sound cool. Simple as

As for clarity, you're probably going to sample from vinyl/tape sources so you're gonna have some hisses/scratches/bumps etc - you can get plugins for cleaning up stuff like this if it's really deteriorating the sound, and obviously EQ and filters are going to help with isolating, say for example a piano loop, from your sample. Most guys on PL's label have a lot going on at once in a track including gritty basses with fuzz, so obviously clever layering is going to further mask any background noise you don't want in your samples, such as trumpets you've tried to eliminate from a drum break.

As for multitracks, here's where you're bascically stepping from a grey area of sampling into the definitive black area of pirating. Multitracks of a lot of songs are available should you wish to find them, but in most cases unless you're the artist or an engineer that worked on the track... you really shouldn't have access to them.

[Maxxan]

Really good reply, thanks mthrfnk! I'll definately start looking into sampling some more when I get the chance. I'm one of these new-school mp3-kids and obviously know fuck-all about vinyl sampling, so if anyone's sitting on any good info on good samplers, techinques, equipment etc that would be sweet. Actually looking into buying myself a vinyl mixer as well to spice up my DJ:ing a bit, basically just for the fun of it.

I know for a fact that both Gramatik and Pretty Lights himself have sampled a lot of famous 60's records in some of their biggest songs that are on some of their later official releases. (You Get High, While I Was Playin' Fair etc), so they're not straight up bootlegs but actual CD/digital releases. This is what puzzles me, I've done my shair of bootlegs myself so I know that's doable, but on the scale these guys are doing you wonder if there isn't some licensing involved.

Anyway, I've been hitting up some of these guys with this question, so hopefully (but most likely not lol) one of them will see and reply. That would be really cool.