sidechaining the snare

[mthrfnk]

I'd recommend finding the frequencies you think make your snare punchy e.g. 200Hz.

Now automate an EQ on your basses/mids/pads... whatever to dip at this (or maybe multiple) frequencies whenever the snare hits. FL has Peak Controller to do this but in Ableton you may have to draw in some automation manually on the EQ duck.

This again is just laziness and a substitute for a proper mixing.

How is this laziness or a substitute in any way, it's just a technique. Yes it's probably beneficial to mix the sounds well and use EQ cuts to help but if you have frequencies clashing it's the perfect way to keep said frequencies in both your snare and synths without cutting/boosting a lot frequencies permanently. Why put a negative spin on something that's a legitimate technique that lot's of people manage to use effectively...

[deadly_habit]

Because it's a shortcut that isn't beneficial knowledge and skill wise in the long run.

[Genevieve]

Shortcut? Cool. Music is all about learning the shortcuts so you can translate what you hear in your head as effectively into your DAW as you can. I may start sidechaining more now.

[mthrfnk]

Because it's a shortcut that isn't beneficial knowledge and skill wise in the long run.

Really? I think I'll agree to disagree...

[MrMush]

one thing to note is it's as much about the other elements in your mix as it is the snare. if you have lots of massive loud mid range synths occupying the same frequency as your snare and loads of other stuff (vocals etc.) it's going to dampen the impact of your snare. IMO mixing is usually a compromise, especially in dance music where your trying to emphasise the percussion and bass without drowning out the other elements of the track.

You could:

1. use a spectrum analyser to find where the snare and the other parts of your track are clashing and use subtractive eq to make small cuts in those sections (don't completely cut them out just cut them by a few db) and then maybe boost the snare a little bit in the same areas. you could also cut frequencies out of your snare samples that are not needed - like below
90hz where the sub bass sits. Don't cut out too much though as you'll lose more impact that way - you could try using a shelf cut on your EQ. it's a balancing act with this sort of stuff and trial and error until you get it to sound good.

2. cut out synth parts that are unneccessary or even make sure the offending part isn't playing at the same time as your synth. Manually automating volume faders is also something i think people forget to do in
busy mixes which is important - mix engineers for rock/pop music do this a lot but i think dance/electronic music producers are discouraged from doing it - i think my mixes have improved since i started automating volume faders to accent or decrease certain parts of the mix at different points in a track.

3. give your snare better eq/compression settings - keep changing it until it sounds good! might take a while but you'll learn more about how to getstuff to sit in the mix. also maybe a different sample selection would help - like someone else said a 909 snare is a good backbone as it cuts through the mix well IMO. unless it's a crazy stereo experimental snare your using i agree with others in this thread that 6 samples might be overkill, but then again if your getting results you like with it then its cool

. Yes i am tryin to go for that powerful sellout snare.
like terravita or someone in that level of intensity.
All in all everything explained is very helpful

[Praxisaxis]

Punchy snares were never a problem when people still had lots of headroom to work with. These days we want it all loud, loud, loud. So we can't allow the snare to jump out too much. This is why a snare will sound fine, even really good, by itself, and thin and brittle when mixed in with everything else. Try muting tracks one by one, until you have the power coming out of your snare that you want. Then consider altering the arrangement to let it jump through as an alternative to side-chaining. You can also automate volume notches in the conflicting parts (similar to sidechaining). I don't think it's "lazy" to automate EQ, sidechain, automate or whatever. I agree mixing is very much about fitting everything in the right band, but the trouble is sometimes more than that - with getting everything in a contemporary sound it's about fitting a heck of a lot into a very small space, and most producers these days don't accomplish this goal simply via static EQ (especially in electronic music). Sure, it's not everyone's cup of tea, and you don't need to do it one way or another, and it depends on your style... but arrangement/automation/sidechaining, it's not cheating!!

[Kit Fysto]

sidechaining synths that share space with your snare is a mix technique. it is not lazy. i think sometimes you might need to remember that this forum, although being focused on dubstep, covers a pretty large spectrum of music production because of all the sub genres. not all music calls for the same techniques when mixing. plain and simple. whatever conveys the vibe of your song the best is what you should do. end of story

[hasezwei]

I'd recommend finding the frequencies you think make your snare punchy e.g. 200Hz.

Now automate an EQ on your basses/mids/pads... whatever to dip at this (or maybe multiple) frequencies whenever the snare hits. FL has Peak Controller to do this but in Ableton you may have to draw in some automation manually on the EQ duck.

This again is just laziness and a substitute for a proper mixing.

How is this laziness or a substitute in any way, it's just a technique. Yes it's probably beneficial to mix the sounds well and use EQ cuts to help but if you have frequencies clashing it's the perfect way to keep said frequencies in both your snare and synths without cutting/boosting a lot frequencies permanently. Why put a negative spin on something that's a legitimate technique that lot's of people manage to use effectively...

you're not compressing the clashing frequencies only, you're compressing all frequencies.
and i bet if this 6 layered snare hadnt been compressed to death itself, there would be no need to do the whole sidechain thing.
people always ask how to get their drums punchier and everyone says compress compress compress but fail to grasp that compressors are the easiest way to make stuff lose punch by fucking up the transients.
parallel compression, okay. using proper attack and release parameters, fine. using multiband compression to get the problematic frequencies under control, yes that's fine too.
but i swear 90% of people here don't even know what the dials on a compressor mean and just squash the shit out of every single channel leaving them with bricks of sound and a horribly boring and static mixdown.

[RmoniK]

Hey man, i'm gonna let you in on a production secret here, people have forgotten about this secret technique but it's by far the most brilliant way of seeing what works.

Alright, here goes... If you're not sure to pick one or the other thing (sidechain or no), the thing you could do is...

Try them both and see which one you like better!

I KNOW! BREIRGJHRITJIJTIRTH HEAD EXPLODING MUCH?!!!11

[NinjaEdit]

Gonna sumarise some of what has been said and add my own elaborations.

- Removing material is still a "creative" process, intuitive or not. Try muting any of the layers, and see if the sound improves.
- Punch can come from clarity
- Less layers will often be clearer
- If you don't like your single snares, get some better ones.
- Sample a snare you like out of a tune?
- Adding a bunch of layers is like introducing noise in a certain frequency band. A better way of doing this is to layer one snare with a whitenoise burst, filtered and EQd.
- Transient shaping can increase crack. Otherwise take the transient off one sample, and attach it to the body of another sample.
- Chest-rattling frequencies are deeper than in a snare. You might have to layer it with a subby kick or a subbass
sine wave.
- Adding some reverb (or a quick delay) to a snare can improve the sound quality.
- try layering a snare with a clap (+whitenoise?). Selectively place reverb, like more on the snare than the clap.

[Praxisaxis]

- Adding some reverb (or a quick delay) to a snare can improve the sound quality.

Yeah this is a great way to get body. I also like to put a gate after the reverb, so that it cuts off at a designated length.

[NinjaEdit]

Yes, and/or compression works well to. Another thing I forgot was distortion and/or bitcrushing. On the whole snare, before or after reverb, or on just the reverb or whitenoise.

[mthrfnk]

I'd recommend finding the frequencies you think make your snare punchy e.g. 200Hz.

Now automate an EQ on your basses/mids/pads... whatever to dip at this (or maybe multiple) frequencies whenever the snare hits. FL has Peak Controller to do this but in Ableton you may have to draw in some automation manually on the EQ duck.

This again is just laziness and a substitute for a proper mixing.

How is this laziness or a substitute in any way, it's just a technique. Yes it's probably beneficial to mix the sounds well and use EQ cuts to help but if you have frequencies clashing it's the perfect way to keep said frequencies in both your snare and synths without cutting/boosting a lot frequencies permanently. Why put a negative spin on something that's a legitimate technique that lot's of people manage to use effectively...

you're not compressing the clashing frequencies only, you're compressing all frequencies.
and i bet if this 6 layered snare hadnt been compressed to death itself, there would be no need to do the whole sidechain thing.
people always ask how to get their drums punchier and everyone says compress compress compress but fail to grasp that compressors are the easiest way to make stuff lose punch by fucking up the transients.
parallel compression, okay. using proper attack and release parameters, fine. using multiband compression to get the problematic frequencies under control, yes that's fine too.
but i swear 90% of people here don't even know what the dials on a compressor mean and just squash the shit out of every single channel leaving them with bricks of sound and a horribly boring and static mixdown.

My post has nothing to do with compression whatsoever, wtf?

[bassinine]

stagger your samples - this should fix the problem.

if it doesn't - add a white noise clap/snare/sample on top.

this and PARALLEL (shouldn't need to side chain the snare) compression is all you should ever need.

[Nrjetik]

Maximum you would ever need to use is 3. Low, mid, and highs. Filter each snare so it fits the frequencies and then you'll have suitable layers. Then send that to a channel and apply effects to that. Side-chaining helps, but it's best to cut the frequencies that clash. A member had suggested side-chaining the frequencies as opposed to the volume which is a nice idea too.

If it still doesn't sound full, mess around with the stereoscopic. Some DAWs have built-in effects to inverse the stereo sound to get it concentrated in the middle or open the stereo-field very wide and make it sound "whole". It's up to you and your ears to see what's best.

[hasezwei]

I'd recommend finding the frequencies you think make your snare punchy e.g. 200Hz.

Now automate an EQ on your basses/mids/pads... whatever to dip at this (or maybe multiple) frequencies whenever the snare hits. FL has Peak Controller to do this but in Ableton you may have to draw in some automation manually on the EQ duck.

This again is just laziness and a substitute for a proper mixing.

How is this laziness or a substitute in any way, it's just a technique. Yes it's probably beneficial to mix the sounds well and use EQ cuts to help but if you have frequencies clashing it's the perfect way to keep said frequencies in both your snare and synths without cutting/boosting a lot frequencies permanently. Why put a negative spin on something that's a legitimate technique that lot's of people manage to use effectively...

you're not compressing the clashing frequencies only, you're compressing all frequencies.
and i bet if this 6 layered snare hadnt been compressed to death itself, there would be no need to do the whole sidechain thing.
people always ask how to get their drums punchier and everyone says compress compress compress but fail to grasp that compressors are the easiest way to make stuff lose punch by fucking up the transients.
parallel compression, okay. using proper attack and release parameters, fine. using multiband compression to get the problematic frequencies under control, yes that's fine too.
but i swear 90% of people here don't even know what the dials on a compressor mean and just squash the shit out of every single channel leaving them with bricks of sound and a horribly boring and static mixdown.

My post has nothing to do with compression whatsoever, wtf?

sorry looks like i got confused, was probably directed at someone else

[MrMush]

Maximum you would ever need to use is 3. Low, mid, and highs. Filter each snare so it fits the frequencies and then you'll have suitable layers. Then send that to a channel and apply effects to that. Side-chaining helps, but it's best to cut the frequencies that clash. A member had suggested side-chaining the frequencies as opposed to the volume which is a nice idea too.

If it still doesn't sound full, mess around with the stereoscopic. Some DAWs have built-in effects to inverse the stereo sound to get it concentrated in the middle or open the stereo-field very wide and make it sound "whole". It's up to you and your ears to see what's best.

Sterioscopic???

Sterioscopic

[NinjaEdit]

More tips:

- Phase alignment. Try randomly inverting the phase of stuff, or timeshifting things by samples at a time.
- Tuning. Run things through a pitch shifter or do so in the sampler. Some point within a range of 2 semitones either way is where things should sound their best.
- Automation. Manually automate volume, pitch, filters etc withiin the sample.
- Analogue. Bounce to tape and blend that in.

All of these tips work on everything.

[Kit Fysto]

stagger your samples - this should fix the problem.

Probably the best advice on here that would lead to the most immediate and noticeable positive change. Lots of other great tips in here as well. Good thread (minus the lazy production crap)