Sub bass conflicting with Kick Drum

[Lemonlust]

I've been having problems with one of my tracks.

http://soundcloud.com/tekzaport/halloween-vip-draft-2

at about 0:22

The sub bass seems to distort the kick drum and I don't know how to go about removing that without removing a lot from the drum and the bass

I've tried EQ'ing the Sub frequencies from the Kick, but then the kick just gets overwhelmed by everything

[Hircine]

your sub, a pure sine wave, should only go as high as 62hz. Try aside from EQing the sub frequencies, reducing the decay and sustain amounts in the kick envelope. Layering your kick can help it cut through the mix, give it a nice 90hz and 1khz~4khz punch. You can also sidechain the sub to the kick so it ducks a couple of dbs.

[rockonin]

Your sub is quiet low in the mix. Try adding an extra kick sample with a bit more power and low end in it. It sounds too thin at the moment. Why don't you group your kicks together (group channel) and add a Transient Shaper plugin to bring the kick out if the problem persists. I really like the drop, and bass. Good Work

[Zkeeto]

I've been having problems with one of my tracks.

http://soundcloud.com/tekzaport/halloween-vip-draft-2

at about 0:22

The sub bass seems to distort the kick drum and I don't know how to go about removing that without removing a lot from the drum and the bass

I've tried EQ'ing the Sub frequencies from the Kick, but then the kick just gets overwhelmed by everything

try sidechaining your sub to your kick channel. remove most of your mids/his from your sub and just leave the low freqs there if your working with a pure sine sub

[VirtualMark]

Sidechain sub, highpass kick, rearrange kick and sub, do a search and read previous posts on this topic as there's tons.

[Sparxy]

I wouldn't personally advise sidechaining for the purpose of making your kick stick out. It's a workaround rather than a fix. You need to think about each element in your tune and give it its own breathing space in the EQ spectrum. There will naturally always be overlap with some elements, but its getting the balance right that counts.

A kick needs to have some kind of sub element to it, but it shouldn't go too deep. I generally lowpass my kick at around 60-70 hz. Depending on the type of kick you've used, you'll probably find that boosting in the 100hz region will give it more punch. This is also why it's important to choose a kick that fits with the rest of your tune in the first place. You can't polish a turd, but you can find one that's already shiny. True sub weight is found in the 40-60hz region so it's important to pick a root key in your tune which allows you to write sub lines in this frequency range. I personally find between E-G are good notes to work with if you want a weighty sub. It will also help make sure your sub doesn't suck too much out of the kick.

The same applies to all over elements in your tune. The snare for example, depending on what samples youve layered to make it, will usually punch at about 200hz. Which is why alot of producers will cut their mids in that range. Similarly you don't want the mids to effect the kick either, so worth dabbling where you can highpass them to ensure they stay clean in the mix.

Experiment, and try using EQs and spectrums that give you a visual representation of what's going on. It will help you understand. Best of luck

[Hircine]

I wouldn't personally advise sidechaining for the purpose of making your kick stick out. It's a workaround rather than a fix. You need to think about each element in your tune and give it its own breathing space in the EQ spectrum. There will naturally always be overlap with some elements, but its getting the balance right that counts.

A kick needs to have some kind of sub element to it, but it shouldn't go too deep. I generally lowpass my kick at around 60-70 hz. Depending on the type of kick you've used, you'll probably find that boosting in the 100hz region will give it more punch. This is also why it's important to choose a kick that fits with the rest of your tune in the first place. You can't polish a turd, but you can find one that's already shiny. True sub weight is found in the 40-60hz region so it's important to pick a root key in your tune which allows you to write sub lines in this frequency range. I personally find between E-G are good notes to work with if you want a weighty sub. It will also help make sure your sub doesn't suck too much out of the kick.

The same applies to all over elements in your tune. The snare for example, depending on what samples youve layered to make it, will usually punch at about 200hz. Which is why alot of producers will cut their mids in that range. Similarly you don't want the mids to effect the kick either, so worth dabbling where you can lowpass them to ensure they stay clean in the mix.

Experiment, and try using EQs and spectrums that give you a visual representation of what's going on. It will help you understand. Best of luck

I see the sidechain more as a aesthethic choice. Not about fixing clashing subs and kicks, I use to get a bit more of sub tail from the kick, not something that I do on every tune I write, of course.

[Sparxy]

Yeah definitely. I think sidechaining when used creatively can sound amazing. It just shouldn't be used for technical reasons in my opinion, because if you did everything properly in the first place the sub and kick wouldn't be conflicting anyway

[koncide]

Sidechain compression.

Done properly I find it is transparent. You really have nothing to lose by doing it IMO, provided it's not overdone ofc

You can EQ all day long. But you only have a range of 60-70 or so hz in the sub part of the spectrum. I don't see how you can have both a fat kick and sub at the same time without ducking one out of the way of the other.

[Sparxy]

Sidechain compression.
Done properly I find it is transparent. You really have nothing to lose by doing it IMO, provided it's not overdone ofc.

I completely disagree with this, I personally think it's blindingly obvious when someone has sidechained their drums to get them 'poking through'.

You can EQ all day long. But you only have a range of 60-70 or so hz in the sub part of the spectrum.

Don't really know what you mean here. Kicks should have some sub element to them but usually in dubstep you don't need them shaking chestplates. That's why you have sub bass. It's different in something like, say house, where often the kick is the only sub-bass element in the tune.

I don't see how you can have both a fat kick and sub at the same time without ducking one out of the way of the other.

Simple, by giving everything it's own EQ space. Listen to the tune in my sig. I'd like to think both the kick and the sub are "fat" and there is no sidechaining going on here at all. Having a kick that's highpassed between 60-70 is enough.

[Sparxy]

TBH though there aren't really any rules in music, so just do what works for you. At the end of the day if it sounds good, it sounds good. I just personally think it's better to do mix and EQ things properly rather than shoehorn a sound in by doing things like sidechaining.

[koncide]

TBH though there aren't really any rules in music, so just do what works for you.

Agreed.

I understand what you're saying about the EQ, but I like to have subs that arn't a pure sine sitting at 60 hz or whatever. I kind of get the idea from the Distance sub bass tutorial, in that a pure sine wave sitting dead low is going to sound amazin on certain systems, but on others it isn't going to come out at all, or just blow air. Because of this I try to contain higher harmonics which fill up all the spectrum from about 110 hz downwards. With this in mind, even a kick highpassed at 70 hz is going to conflict with my sub.

I agree that sidechaining can be blindingly obvious, but they key for me is to do it subtlely, maybe 3db of reduction at the most.

[Sparxy]

I also make my subs with some higher harmonics, I assumed that was standard practice really. Bit of subtle warmth from a tube, compression to even out the peaks. Like I said there will always be some overlapping frequencies in tunes, its normal. Seriously it is totally possible to get a phat sub and a kick without sidechaining them. Infact its what you SHOULD be doing. I'll point to my tune again as an example. I'd still recommend not instantly drawing for sidechaining for this reason, it's bad practice. It's better to draw for sidechaining for creative reasons than technical reasons. It will do you favours in the long run and your tune will sound punchier as a result, because it will be mixed down properly

[VirtualMark]

Come on guys, there's no right and wrong. Sidechaining is just another option we have, it works well in some tunes but it's not necessary. You both have good tunes in your sig which shows it can be done either way.

[Segadeth]

sorry I don't really mean to hijack this thread but I am having the same problem as well. But I'm thinking of doing is by having 3 different kick samples. 1 for sub, 1 for mids, 1 for highs. Or just by sending 1 sample to three separate mixer channels and sort out the frequencies there. And since I'm using FL Studio theres this peak controller that I'm planning on using to automate volume of the sub kick channel every time sub bass hits. I have yet to try this but I wanna know what you guys think.

[Genevieve]

Just pitch the kick up a little, if the highs sound dodgy then just filter them out and put another kick on there. Hi-pass anywhere from 60 to 90 hz and it'll sound alright.

You can have a pretty big kick without much sub, man. Just make it punchy.

[Sparxy]

Come on guys, there's no right and wrong. Sidechaining is just another option we have, it works well in some tunes but it's not necessary. You both have good tunes in your sig which shows it can be done either way.

Nah I kinda agree with you, there is no right and wrong really and I do apologise if I come across like a dick sometimes - I don't mean to. I just don't think it's sound advice to tell someone to botch their kick into the mixdown using a sidechaining technique, it should be a last resort. Why not just do it properly? I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to make the kick and the sub sit perfectly as its totally achievable to everyone.

But like I said there aren't really any rules and at the end of the day if it sounds good, it sounds good. The only problem is "sounding good" can be objective. Anyway all my advice for getting punchy kicks and weighty subs can be found in here and there's nothing more that I can add to this thread. Apologies to Koncide if I offended you, I didn't mean to, its all healthy debate innit

[koncide]

No offence taken mate, I appreciate the different perspectives. To be fair I am somewhat sidechain mad, I sidechain my kick and snare to almost every element in my tracks, for me the kick and snare are the coil around which everything else in my track revolves. Don't get me wrong, I'm not lazy with EQ and I never set up a sidechain until I am happy with the EQ balance, and I try to make my sidechaining more as an added ambience rather than a blatant effect, just for the added punchiness it can bring.

[Sparxy]

sorry I don't really mean to hijack this thread but I am having the same problem as well. But I'm thinking of doing is by having 3 different kick samples. 1 for sub, 1 for mids, 1 for highs. Or just by sending 1 sample to three separate mixer channels and sort out the frequencies there. And since I'm using FL Studio theres this peak controller that I'm planning on using to automate volume of the sub kick channel every time sub bass hits. I have yet to try this but I wanna know what you guys think.

I think you are making your kick too complicated. I've learned not to layer my kicks. It's better to find one that simply sounds sick from the get go. Spend time going through samples searching for the perfect kick for your track and just throw it in there. EQ boost at 100hz for added "punch". You can EQ boost higher up to add a "clicky" sound, this can help it cut through a busy mixdown as well. Add saturation / compression to taste. That's literally all I do with kicks. It's definitely important to find a kick that sounds almost just how you want it.

As i've mentioned above I wouldn't bother automating your sub. Just make sure the root key of your tune allows you to write sub lines in 40-60hz range and slice the bottom of your kick around 60-70hz so its not conflicting. If your kick is punchy, doing all of this will mean they don't interfere much with each other.

Might be important to note that I run all of my drums on a paralell send track with the gain right down low so its barely audible. On it, is nothing but reverb. I find this helps lift the drums to the front of the mix (where they need to be) and also makes them sound "united" like they are part of the same kit.

[Sparxy]

No offence taken mate, I appreciate the different perspectives. To be fair I am somewhat sidechain mad, I sidechain my kick and snare to almost every element in my tracks, for me the kick and snare are the coil around which everything else in my track revolves. Don't get me wrong, I'm not lazy with EQ and I never set up a sidechain until I am happy with the EQ balance, and I try to make my sidechaining more as an added ambience rather than a blatant effect, just for the added punchiness it can bring.

Yea, kick and snare should be the loudest thing in your tune, but only for a split-second. I think it can be good to sidechain them to things but I just don't like it when people do it for technical reasons rather than creative ones. Also remember that sub frequencies have a habit of munching headroom so if you let it go too wild it will make the whole tune sound "muddy" and murky. it should sit slightly quieter than your main drum hits. In doing this you will also find the kick starts to sit nicer in the mix and your sub is still perfectly audible. Gain structure and EQing is ridiculously important to how your tune is going to sound overall, which is another good reason why its important to try and learn how to structure everything rather than just drawing for sidechaining all the time

Below is a tune I think uses sidechaining very very well (It helps that Breakage is a total badman)