Bye Bye Benedict

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scspkr99
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by scspkr99 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:22 pm

magma wrote: This is where I feel the need to make some definitions because I'm not actually religious. I didn't use the term "hotline to God", but it's the Church's belief that he's nominated by God to be the only human with security clearance... not that his VPN is terribly reliable.
I used the term in reference to him finding out when God changes his mind before anyone else. I don't think that is his raison d'etre it was a throw away comment related to another that didn't really bother me but I thought there was not much point discussing further.
magma wrote: my personal opinion, all the Pope's decisions are his own and all changes to Catholic dogma come from the congregation because I don't believe ideas can flow from a non-existent God. But, [along with many other smaller ones] the Pope's ultimate responsibility is to be the one that makes those calls on God's behalf and the people who employ him do believe that he has some sort of contact with God. He might not be sent every answer in a burning bush, but he's considered close enough to the trinity that his word can be trusted over any other human. "Hotline to God" is a silly term that I'd almost certainly never use (probably why I'm feeling a bit defensive), but I don't think there's anything terribly wrong with me replying to Gareth saying he's "not notoriously open to change" with something about his perceived connection to God - if I could bolster my opinion with the weight of God's, I'd probably get a bit more headstrong too.
This is all perfectly reasonable as was garethoms point that you were responding to. I see it slightly differently mind but as an agnostic theist that's likely to be the case. If morals aren't handed down by god to the church, and I don't believe they are, they should, in a religious sense, be borne of a search for God. This makes the church morally culpable when it persists with a course of action that results in human suffering and there exists the scope to prevent it. I get that the church has to remain consistent with doctrine but other faiths using the exact same book have a very different interpretation on contraception. It's not doctrine but dogma those outside the church wont see it that way but those who've looked critically at it should.
magma wrote:I agree with this and, as I hope you've realised, I'm most definitely not arguing that the Catholic stance on AIDS is good. In fact, I think it's very bad indeed. I was just pointing out why it didn't necessarily butt up against celibacy/pre-marital sex laws because Garethom asked:
Yeah I know you're position here is sound. I think sometimes though people not connected to a church are too accepting of a churches right to a position. Like we defend the rights of organisations to hold positions that we feel are morally unacceptable because it is morally unacceptable to deny them that right. I think though we retain the right to call them on it.

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EliteLennon117
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by EliteLennon117 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:09 pm

DJ Wanka wrote:We write this with tears falling and hearts failing. Our beloved Jake Wankwells loving and living father recently announced that he will step aside from his job and move because of his poor health. You made a good job praying out Jake from his virgin mother Benedict! Big ups! XVI for ever! ♥
:lol:
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Muncey
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by Muncey » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:07 am

EliteLennon117 wrote:
DJ Wanka wrote:We write this with tears falling and hearts failing. Our beloved Jake Wankwells loving and living father recently announced that he will step aside from his job and move because of his poor health. You made a good job praying out Jake from his virgin mother Benedict! Big ups! XVI for ever! ♥
:lol:
Haha brilliant. Reminds me.. wheres atlascesar at? I bet he has some interesting views on this.

garethom wrote:
What I don't get about the criticism of the pope/previous popes' stance on condoms is that they get it in the ear for being against contraception, but nobody mentions that they also preach celibacy and sex within marriage only. Let's face it, places would have lower AIDS/HIV rates if they stuck to THAT part of Christianity.

Fair enough if the Pope came out and said "Fuck everyone you want, but don't you dare wear a johnny".
Pope gets shit for the condom thing not because he condemns the use of them but spreads the rumour, in Africa, that condoms will increase the chance of AIDs and HIV. It wouldn't be so bad if he was seen to be prioritising making sure sex within marriage happened but it was more the focus on making sure people didn't use condoms, knowing full well they're gunna just fuck around anyway. Lets be honest they've not got much else to do in Africa. The fact he spread those lies did cause a lot of people to reject using them.. and those lies cost lives.

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Terpit
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by Terpit » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:22 am

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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by kidshuffle » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:34 am

within hours, lol
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alphacat
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by alphacat » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:39 pm

God checked his messages, was like "wtf pope?! OH NO YOU DI'NT!"
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Muncey
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by Muncey » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:50 pm

Pope has a pacemaker. Nice to know they can pick and choose which parts of science and medicine are acceptable.

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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by garethom » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:59 pm

Muncey wrote:Pope has a pacemaker. Nice to know they can pick and choose which parts of science and medicine are acceptable.
god gave humanity free will and they used it to make pacemakers, not hard to understand mate :|

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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by nousd » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:14 pm

pretty rough
just because he wants to abdicate
the cardinals get to smash his ring
:o

and at just what point does he become fallible again?
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alphacat
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by alphacat » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:37 pm

garethom wrote:
Muncey wrote:Pope has a pacemaker. Nice to know they can pick and choose which parts of science and medicine are acceptable.
god gave humanity free will and they used it to make pacemakers, not hard to understand mate :|
Correction:

Free will to violate God's own alleged dictate (see Papal Bull: "De Sepulturis") about dissecting cadavers to learn enough about the inner workings of His creation in order to create pacemakers.

:Q:
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scspkr99
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by scspkr99 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:32 am

There's a joke in there about the majority of papal bull being horse..

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d-T-r
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by d-T-r » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:16 pm

http://itccs.org/2013/02/13/pope-benedi ... by-easter/
Diplomatic Note was issued to Vatican just prior to his resignation
New Pope and Catholic clergy face indictment and arrest as "Easter Reclamation" plan continues
A Global Media Release and Statement from The International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State 
Brussels:
The historically unprecedented resignation of Joseph Ratzinger as Pope this week was compelled by an upcoming action by a European government to issue an arrest warrant against Ratzinger and a public lien against Vatican property and assets by Easter.
The ITCCS Central Office in Brussels is compelled by Pope Benedict's sudden abdication to disclose the following details:
1. On Friday, February 1, 2013, on the basis of evidence supplied by our affiliated Common Law Court of Justice (itccs.org), our Office concluded an agreement with representatives of a European nation and its courts to secure an arrest warrant against Joseph Ratzinger, aka Pope Benedict, for crimes against humanity and ordering a criminal conspiracy.
2. This arrest warrant was to be delivered to the office of the "Holy See" in Rome on Friday, February 15, 2013. It allowed the nation in question to detain Ratzinger as a suspect in a crime if he entered its sovereign territory.
3. A diplomatic note was issued by the said nation's government to the Vatican's Secretary of State, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, on Monday, February 4, 2013, informing Bertone of the impending arrest warrant and inviting his office to comply. No reply to this note was received from Cardinal Bertone or his office; but six days later, Pope Benedict resigned.
4. The agreement between our Tribunal and the said nation included a second provision to issue a commercial lien through that nation's courts against the property and wealth of the Roman Catholic church commencing on Easter Sunday, March 31, 2013. This lien was to be accompanied by a public and global "Easter Reclamation Campaign" whereby Catholic church property was to be occupied and claimed by citizens as public assets forfeited under international law and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.
5. It is the decision of our Tribunal and the said nation's government to proceed with the arrest of Joseph Ratzinger upon his vacating the office of the Roman Pontiff on a charge of crimes against humanity and criminal conspiracy.
6. It is our further decision to proceed as well with the indictment and arrest of Joseph Ratzinger's successor as Pope on the same charges; and to enforce the commercial lien and "Easter Reclamation Campaign" against the Roman Catholic church, as planned.
In closing, our Tribunal acknowledges that Pope Benedict's complicity in criminal activities of the Vatican Bank (IOR) was compelling his eventual dismissal by the highest officials of the Vatican. But according to our sources, Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone forced Joseph Ratzinger's resignation immediately, and in direct response to the diplomatic note concerning the arrest warrant that was issued to him by the said nation's government on February 4, 2013.
We call upon all citizens and governments to assist our efforts to legally and directly disestablish the Vatican, Inc. and arrest its chief officers and clergy who are complicit in crimes against humanity and the ongoing criminal conspiracy to aid and protect child torture and trafficking.
Further bulletins on the events of the Easter Reclamation Campaign will be issued by our Office this week.
Issued 13 February, 2013
12:00 am GMT
by the Brussels Central Office
As the Babylonian echoes of the vatican fade into dust :)
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alphacat
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by alphacat » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:33 pm

I'm just a little skeptical, being that this organization seems to be sort of a small group of unknowns; that being said, IF this is true, then, why... :o

Apparently this all stems back to the Vatican leaks scandal, what with allegations of impropriety by the Vatican Bank in collusion with the Pope.

And then there's the whole thing about Dawkins wanting to have Ratzinger arrested if he sets foot in the UK...

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ehbes
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by ehbes » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:33 am

yeah i havent seen this story on any major news sites yet....
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by chekov » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:41 am

ehbrums1 wrote:yeah i havent seen this story on any major news sites yet....
lol u sheepp
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by d-T-r » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:02 pm

Reuters good enough?


Pope will have security, immunity by remaining in the Vatican
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE91E0ZI20130215

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict's decision to live in the Vatican after he resigns will provide him with security and privacy. It will also offer legal protection from any attempt to prosecute him in connection with sexual abuse cases around the world, Church sources and legal experts say.

"His continued presence in the Vatican is necessary, otherwise he might be defenseless. He wouldn't have his immunity, his prerogatives, his security, if he is anywhere else," said one Vatican official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"It is absolutely necessary" that he stays in the Vatican, said the source, adding that Benedict should have a "dignified existence" in his remaining years.

Vatican sources said officials had three main considerations in deciding that Benedict should live in a convent in the Vatican after he resigns on February 28.

Vatican police, who already know the pope and his habits, will be able to guarantee his privacy and security and not have to entrust it to a foreign police force, which would be necessary if he moved to another country.

"I see a big problem if he would go anywhere else. I'm thinking in terms of his personal security, his safety. We don't have a secret service that can devote huge resources (like they do) to ex-presidents," the official said.

Another consideration was that if the pope did move permanently to another country, living in seclusion in a monastery in his native Germany, for example, the location might become a place of pilgrimage.

POTENTIAL EXPOSURE

This could be complicated for the Church, particularly in the unlikely event that the next pope makes decisions that may displease conservatives, who could then go to Benedict's place of residence to pay tribute to him.

"That would be very problematic," another Vatican official said.

The final key consideration is the pope's potential exposure to legal claims over the Catholic Church's sexual abuse scandals.

In 2010, for example, Benedict was named as a defendant in a law suit alleging that he failed to take action as a cardinal in 1995 when he was allegedly told about a priest who had abused boys at a U.S. school for the deaf decades earlier. The lawyers withdrew the case last year and the Vatican said it was a major victory that proved the pope could not be held liable for the actions of abusive priests.

Benedict is currently not named specifically in any other case. The Vatican does not expect any more but is not ruling out the possibility.

"(If he lived anywhere else) then we might have those crazies who are filing lawsuits, or some magistrate might arrest him like other (former) heads of state have been for alleged acts while he was head of state," one source said.

Another official said: "While this was not the main consideration, it certainly is a corollary, a natural result."

After he resigns, Benedict will no longer be the sovereign monarch of the State of Vatican City, which is surrounded by Rome, but will retain Vatican citizenship and residency.

LATERAN PACTS

That would continue to provide him immunity under the provisions of the Lateran Pacts while he is in the Vatican and even if he makes jaunts into Italy as a Vatican citizen.

The 1929 Lateran Pacts between Italy and the Holy See, which established Vatican City as a sovereign state, said Vatican City would be "invariably and in every event considered as neutral and inviolable territory".

There have been repeated calls for Benedict's arrest over sexual abuse in the Catholic Church.

When Benedict went to Britain in 2010, British author and atheist campaigner Richard Dawkins asked authorities to arrest the pope to face questions over the Church's child abuse scandal.

Dawkins and the late British-American journalist Christopher Hitchens commissioned lawyers to explore ways of taking legal action against the pope. Their efforts came to nothing because the pope was a head of state and so enjoyed diplomatic immunity.

In 2011, victims of sexual abuse by the clergy asked the International Criminal Court to investigate the pope and three Vatican officials over sexual abuse.

The New York-based rights group Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) and another group, Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP), filed a complaint with the ICC alleging that Vatican officials committed crimes against humanity because they tolerated and enabled sex crimes.

The ICC has not taken up the case but has never said why. It generally does not comment on why it does not take up cases.

NOT LIKE A CEO

The Vatican has consistently said that a pope cannot be held accountable for cases of abuse committed by others because priests are employees of individual dioceses around the world and not direct employees of the Vatican. It says the head of the church cannot be compared to the CEO of a company.

Victims groups have said Benedict, particularly in his previous job at the head of the Vatican's doctrinal department, turned a blind eye to the overall policies of local Churches, which moved abusers from parish to parish instead of defrocking them and handing them over to authorities.

The Vatican has denied this. The pope has apologized for abuse in the Church, has met with abuse victims on many of his trips, and ordered a major investigation into abuse in Ireland.

But groups representing some of the victims say the Pope will leave office with a stain on his legacy because he was in positions of power in the Vatican for more than three decades, first as a cardinal and then as pope, and should have done more.

The scandals began years before the then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was elected pope in 2005 but the issue has overshadowed his papacy from the beginning, as more and more cases came to light in dioceses across the world.

As recently as last month, the former archbishop of Los Angeles, Cardinal Roger Mahony, was stripped by his successor of all public and administrative duties after a thousands of pages of files detailing abuse in the 1980s were made public.

Mahony, who was archbishop of Los Angeles from 1985 until 2011, has apologized for "mistakes" he made as archbishop, saying he had not been equipped to deal with the problem of sexual misconduct involving children. The pope was not named in that case.

In 2007, the Los Angeles archdiocese, which serves 4 million Catholics, reached a $660 million civil settlement with more than 500 victims of child molestation, the biggest agreement of its kind in the United States.

Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said the pope "gave the fight against sexual abuse a new impulse, ensuring that new rules were put in place to prevent future abuse and to listen to victims. That was a great merit of his papacy and for that we will be grateful".
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alphacat
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by alphacat » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Next up: Anonymous vs. Knights of Malta AND Opus Dei! Cage Match! BRING IT!!! :twisted:
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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by Phase Down » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:25 pm

people care about the pope? historical event? :lol:

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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by garethom » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:39 pm

Phase Down wrote:people care about the pope? historical event? :lol:
What constitutes a historic event for you then bro?

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Re: Bye Bye Benedict

Post by chekov » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:08 pm

garethom wrote:
Phase Down wrote:people care about the pope? historical event? :lol:
What constitutes a historic event for you then bro?
days when i can be arsed to get dressed are pretty big news for me
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