Lowering the master fader vs individual tracks

[Kaaz]

I have a question!

When I read about preparing mixdowns for mastering, I obviously read everywhere to keep good headroom. However, sometimes, it is mentioned that you should lower the volume of each individual track and not simply pull down the master fader. Why is that? The reason behind that is not explained anywhere I could find.
Besides, I've read some mastering houses' FAQ in which they said simply pulling down your master fader is absolutely fine.

This might seem really dumb to you guys, but I'm still learning so don't go too hard at me!
Thanks

[claudedefaren]

Something about algorithms. Doesn't matter. Pulling the master fader down is fine. Do what works.

[Talált]

depends what software you use. ableton's mixer tracks will appear to be clipping but it's just a warning, they don't actually clip till i think +60db or something (correct me), however, when the master shows clipping. it is CLIPPING. so you have alot more headroom in the mixer tracks than on the master.

but that's besides the point.

i'm not gonna give an end all be all because i'm not the worlds greatest producer. but my friend had a nice metaphor. if you wanna draw a smiley face on a balloon, does it make more sense to draw and then blow it up? or blow it up and then draw. if you draw the face first, and then blow it up, it will be distorted and the definition of your lines will fade. however if you blow up the balloon first and then draw a smiley face on it... you get what i'm saying.

in essence what i'm saying is my personal preference is to not touch the master. and then mix from there. *FOR ME* *IN MY OPINION* that way i can focus on getting good cohesive mixes from song to song. i have a point of relativity to go off of. actually come to think of it, i don't think it matters what you set the master to, as long as the levels are as close to 0 without clipping. frankly, you can get a mixdown (and i have) so good that there isn't much left up to the mastering engineer at all. what it comes down to is that i trust someone that's got 10 years experience on me. and i sit with him while he does it. at some point i can imagine a place where i can master my own shit, because all it really comes down to is the effects chain on your master track.

people will argue all day about this topic, how you should leave ~6DB of headroom on the master for your mastering engineer. i don't think it matters. frankly, i get complimented all day by my mastering engineer for my mixing skills. don't get me wrong i'm nowhere near perfect, and there's plenty to critique.
i use my kick as a point of relativity. i get it as close to 0db on the master as i can, and then ill mix the sub in, and then worry about sidechaining, because it WILL clip. I DON'T USE A LIMITER, i feel like it's a cheat, and frankly sounds like ACEHOLE. after the sub i'll add in my bassline. once those three elements are mixed (kick sub and bass/midrange bass) i'll turn off the kick and sub, and mix my snare and my midrange bass. there are different opinions always so i'm just gonna tell you what i do, and you can pick and choose. i personally like my snare to hit a TINY bit harder than the bass, and the mid range of the bass is also sidechained to the snare. you can get a good clean mix this way. after that, turn the sub and kick back on, and proceed on up the frequency range.

keep in mind there is no end all be all, the reason we are producers is because we have an ear for what sounds good. so do what sounds good to you.

TLDR

don't touch the master. USE A SPECTRUM ANALYZER of some sort, bring in songs you like and watch what they are doing. (also notice how LOW QUALITY SONGS will have a harsh cut right around 10k) watch where the sub peaks, the kick peaks. how the highs are all mixed together, and how the leads poke out (or not). how there is a slight downward slope in DB from 20hz to 20khz because we humans naturally percieve highs as "louder" and when i say louder i'm not talking about amplitude i'm talking about your perception of it.

anyone feel free to correct me

much love DSFers

edit: PS make sure you are doing this on good transparent headphones/monitors. after a while of studying the how the visual spectrum works, it will be first nature. practice makes perfect.

[Kaaz]

Thanks for the answers!
Talalt: I don't think I have bad mixing skills when it comes to blending everything together, it's more of a mix down preparation for mastering type of question, but your post was pretty interesting to be honest. If ever a beginner producer reads this though, I would have to suggest being very, VERY careful with sidechaining drums to midrange bass because at loud volumes on large speakers (club / rave sound systems), doing so can really make or break a track. Multiband sidechaining in this case can be very useful though, so that you only duck out the punch and clarity of your snare. But then again, gotta be careful cause I've already tried some of my tracks where sidechaining sounded transparent on some big speakers and wow, that stuff really pops out

[Talált]

yep multiband sidechaining, i know what you're talking about. it's a balance you gotta find. to be frank, and im not, im andrew. i've almost completely done away with sidechaining an entire frequency range of an instrument. i've gotten it to the point where you almost don't even notice that it's being sidechained. but everything punches right through how it should.

yeah i know i went off on a little tangent there =p

as far as getting it ready for a master, just do your best on the mix. i've taken tracks to my mastering engineer that were peaking at -6db, and i've taken him ones with my new method of getting it as close to 0 as possible myself. and the only thing it's changed is how much he had to turn it up, and i'm a purist, so i think a track should only be boosted or attenuated as little as possible, ie for me having it as close to 0 as possible before taking to for mastering.

[fragments]

Well, for one, if a mixer channel is clipping, turning down the master doesn't stop the clipping. ^I'm surprised your ME could do anything with a mix so close to -0dB.

[Talált]

i think you're confused or i'm confused m8. did you read my whole post? the first thing i said was ableton specific, and i specified. also specifically said not to turn down the master at all *IMO*. and i also said after a certain point there isn't much left up to my engineer. if a mixer channel in ableton is clipping, and the master is down enough so the master isn't clipping, you won't hear a clip, even though the mixer channel will be off the chart in the red. only when the master is clippng *IN ABLETON* will you SEE and HEAR a true clip ie squared off. ie squashed, ie sausage link

edit: go try it out, if you use ableton.

EDIT: i was the one that was confused sorry dude. i got touchy. it's hard to read intentions thru text.

[Kaaz]

About the original post: no mixer channel is clipping ever, and usually at unity gain my master is clipping approx 1-2db, so I just pull it down until I have around 3db headroom on the loudest parts of my mix

[Talált]

About the original post: no mixer channel is clipping ever, and usually at unity gain my master is clipping approx 1-2db, so I just pull it down until I have around 3db headroom on the loudest parts of my mix

this works totally fine, the point i was taking forever to get to, is that i don't see a need for headroom if you've manage to mix and compress your tracks properly. if you wanna talk headroom, i do have it. about -0.3DB up to -1DB usually.. as close to 0 as i can get without anything peaking (this is why i said i'm against limiters). i don't think it matters how MUCH headroom there is.

where we're getting confused i think is i am mastering my own songs at this point, right then and there. to the best of my ability. and not doing too bad a job of it.

anyone is welcome to correct me if i'm wrong on that.

[NinjaEdit]

The correct answer to this is DON'T TOUCH THE MASTER FADER.

You could have experimented yourself to check which sounds better.

Check the moneyshot thread. If you turn down the master fader, the sum of your signals clips on the way into the master channel, and is then attenuated so that you don't see any clipping.

[Kaaz]

Thanks jonahmann, I guess it makes sense even though I would imagine that if the signals sum up anywhere, it's through the master channel rather than "on the way into the master channel". I'll just stick to that!
By the way, I assume it works the same with busses within the mix?

[mthrfnk]

Can someone point out why people are clipping the master, creating "headroom" using the master fader and sending brickwalled tracks to ME's?

LIke seriously, you think proper recording/mixing/mastering engineers have been doing it wrong all these years?

My opinion: mix your tracks properly, don't be lazy - a good mix will make or break a track imo. Leave enough proper headroom, regardless of whether you're aiming to brickwall the shit out of it.

Just as a side note: I used to be lazy with mixdowns, I had my mixes just so they weren't clipping, but they sounded good/loud enough - sometimes I'd lower the master fader I'd then "master" these with Ozone, again they sounded good/loud enough - went to play them out on bigger systems, and some got played on the radio, in both cases they just sounded crunchy and horrible because I just hadn't created the clarity a good mix needs from the beginning - radio compression/limiting destroyed a few tracks tbh. I've now started aiming to mix to -6dB and my mixes and final "mastered" tunes are sounding a hell of a lot cleaner. I also make heavy use of busses - my final tracks tend to have around 50 mixer channels in use, all of which get routed to 5-8 busses depending on the track - I always try to ensure the mix of each buss is as good as it can be, helps me improve the overal mix (e.g. make my drum buss as punchy and clear as possible before mixing the drums with bass/synths).

Also, the thing about mixer faders not clipping when red is also applicable to FL, as per the manual:

[Kaaz]

Thanks for the info
That is applicable as well for mix busses, right?

[claudedefaren]

If you turn your master fader down, and you don't have a limiter on it, and it's generally around -6dB, you are totally fine to send that to a mastering engineer, regardless of what anyone in this thread or the (god-awful) money shot thread is saying

[mthrfnk]

If you turn your master fader down, and you don't have a limiter on it, and it's generally around -6dB, you are totally fine to send that to a mastering engineer, regardless of what anyone in this thread or the (god-awful) money shot thread is saying

It may be "fine", but it's not the same as mixing the entire track to -6dB...

[Kaaz]

I have tried as mthrfnk said and for now, it does make a slight difference, even on the mix down itself. I think that the "real" difference will really stand out on the master. Thanks a lot!

[lloydy]

Why not just mix loud and then pull all faders down the same amount so the master is peaking at the volume needed for mastering.
If i mix on my cans i always mix loud so i can hear everything going on,like i might add a reverb on a send that is only just audible at loud volumes so i like to hear everything going on.
I always put a limiter on the master when writing tunes or arranging with a very small affect on the overall volume.Basically just to make sure the master doesn't clip.
I mix as i go along and then take the limiter off at the end,now you can imagine it clips like fuck so i just select all tracks other than the master and bring the volume down until the highest peak is -6 to -3 db,bounce this then master.