output clipping

tmu · Post by **tmu** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:58 pm

i only just started learning about producing so dont know about this much, but ... WTF i just experimented bouncing tunes out with different amounts clippin occurring in the level meter, but it sounded fine when listening it, how much people clip theyr master output whent they bounce their finished tunes out ?

i tought that it will sound like shit if u go above 0db even a littlebit?

djake · Post by **djake** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:54 pm

clippin aint good.

as far as i no anyway

mrhope · Post by **mrhope** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:07 pm

Clipping may or may not sound good depending upon the style of music, the duration/quickness of the clipping, and the type of system it's played back on.

On my own songs, I've noticed that some clipped songs sound just fine on most speakers, but then on certain headphones you can hear the clipping distortion.

If you want to play it safe, avoid clipping by using a limiter on the master output.

tmu · Post by **tmu** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:50 pm

what i mean is even when my level meter shows that its clipping a lot over 0 db, it doesnt sound distorted at all...

wonder how accurate some level meters are ?

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:17 pm

^^ more like, i wonder how accurate your monitoring is. really easy to mask certain kinds of clipping.

also, it's not how much clipping, it's what kind. you hear people talking about how great a compressor's output stage when you overdrive it-- that's clipping. how warm a tube distortion is-- clipping. how ugly digital overs are-- clipping.

and... what you're clipping. shave 12db off a snare drum, it might sound awesome.. do it to a whole mix, it could sound horrible.

FWIW if you're gonna have a track mastered, in general, getting something to -6db PEAK is a great way to go. gives the mastering engineer a whole lot of space to work their magic.

roqqert · Post by **roqqert** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:19 pm

if you finished your tune with compressie and stuff then youll put a limiter on it so it wont clip. done....

auan · Post by **auan** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:49 pm

-6dB seems a little low to me,. but I've never had anything professionally mastered so I dunno. -3dB Peak seems more... normal.

two oh one · Post by **two oh one** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:53 pm

-6 is usually what I've done in the past when getting things mastered. I've heard that some M.Es like it -3. Always best to ask them. If you're 24 bit (And you should be!) you've got plenty of bits to spare.

westernsynthetics · Post by **westernsynthetics** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:27 am

how would you guys who have had shit mastered go about acheiving -6db?

Would you simply bring the master level down or stick a limiter on the matser? I have heard conflicting ways of doing this.

tmu · Post by **tmu** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:02 am

tmu wrote:i only just started learning about producing so dont know about this much, but ... WTF i just experimented bouncing tunes out with different amounts clippin occurring in the level meter, but it sounded fine when listening it, how much people clip theyr master output whent they bounce their finished tunes out ?

i tought that it will sound like shit if u go above 0db even a littlebit?

i tested this again, now with a test oscillator plugin, wich outputs a pure sinewave, and if i now go over 0 db a slightes bit the sound changes, it doesnt distort, but its not clean sine anymore.

funny though, i didnt hear anything wrong when clipping the tune...

i guess its ok then to clip and go into the red, as long as it doesnt distort the sound ?!?!...

roqqert · Post by **roqqert** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:50 pm

westernsynthetics wrote:how would you guys who have had shit mastered go about acheiving -6db?

Would you simply bring the master level down or stick a limiter on the matser? I have heard conflicting ways of doing this.

use a gainer or a volumer... its a little vst so yuo can low the volume/gain. youve to keep the master volume on standerd

slothrop · Post by **slothrop** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:30 pm

tmu wrote: i tested this again, now with a test oscillator plugin, wich outputs a pure sinewave, and if i now go over 0 db a slightes bit the sound changes, it doesnt distort, but its not clean sine anymore.

funny though, i didnt hear anything wrong when clipping the tune...

i guess its ok then to clip and go into the red, as long as it doesnt distort the sound ?!?!...

If you put a clean sine wave in and get somethingg other than a clean sine wave out, then it's distorting. And yeah, it will do that whenever your levels go over 0dB - the tops of the waveform get sliced off, which generally introduces more high freqencies and can sound grim.

It might not be that noticeable if the tune's already quite distorted (because it'd be piling a bit more distortion on top) or if you're only going a bit over 0. I'd still avoid it because a) it might not be noticeable on your system but really abrasive (I mean, bad abrasive not good abrasive) played at volume on a big club system and b) even if you like distortion, clipping the master will distort everything, not just the parts you want distorted. In particular, this is likely to take some of the low end out of your bass (because it's putting more high in). Much better to use dedicated distortion plugins on the individual parts.

Roqqert wrote: use a gainer or a volumer... its a little vst so yuo can low the volume/gain. youve to keep the master volume on standerd

Hmmm, I'd never heard that before. Why?

edit: hmmmm, have looked around a bit more. I think I see... it's about being able to be consistant with what you do in other channels, yes?

edit edit: hang on, no. The reasons I've heard for not touching the master fader are to do with knowing exactly what the individual track levels will be doing in terms of the overall mix, so you know that if the meter on your bass channel peaks at -6dB, the bass is taking up half of your total headroom. But if you're sticking a gain/volume VST on the master channel, that doesn't apply - you're still changing the gain on the master, just without touching the fader...

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:24 pm

don't use a gainer.

and def. don't move your master fader if you don't have to... depending on the software you're mixing in, it can make a big difference in terms of how good your mix sounds. the individual channels have 32 bits of dynamic range; the master has 24... once you start doing that kind of math in anything but an idea situation (ie, it's better in logic than it is in reason), the differences are noticeble.

especially if your tracks are going to be mastered-- just turn up your speakers, turn down your levels, start with the kick, get it sounding banging but peaking at around -8 to -6, and build from there.

why?

if it's gonna get mastered, then the mastering engineer is going to make it sound as bright, full, thick, and loud as it can. if it's already up and clipped at zero, he's got no headroom to do anything to it. at -6 you've got tons of space to compress/limit/eq.

of course, you don't have to do this-- if it's sounding wicked then it's wicked. you've got just got to be extremely precise in your listening to be convinced that it's wicked. If it sounds flat between a skream tune and a benga tune, it can be mastered up if it's at -6. if it's at 0, you're shit out of luck.

jtransition · Post by **jtransition** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:45 pm

Please do not clip anything that you intend to send to us to be mastered.
Jason

thump rat · Post by **thump rat** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:17 pm

If your playing out and you don't know the setup/system then i normally bounce my tunes with a bit of clipping, to get it as loud as possible, just incase that the gains are whacked all the way up. If the gains are not, then just adjust them, but dubstep generally has a very big change in dynamic from intro to drop, which is hassles when you've got to adjust the gains, sometimes its too loud, sometimes its too quiet.

If your sending stuff to get mastered/cut then normally get it as loud as you can without it hitting the red.

tempest · Post by **tempest** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:42 pm

Jtransition wrote:Please do not clip anything that you intend to send to us to be mastered.
Jason

haha

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