Trying to wrap my head around Pure Data

[zeta]

Hey all, I recently heard about a great music programming language called 'Pure Data'. Curious, I decided to give it a go and learn it.

However, I'm trying to wrap my head around it still. There is a lot of mathematics involved and some mathematical theory, and given my previous attempt at learning how to programme ended in disaster, I'm curious to see if any of you guys have dabbled with it - and if you have, if you have any tips, resources, tutorials or tricks to give in using it efficiently.

[NinjaEdit]

Go like dis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkmMzqohsDo
http://pd-tutorial.com/
http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/techniques.htm
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewforum ... 383d9ab5a0

Otherwise try a higher-level modular envorinment.

[kohler]

If you are not a programmer or have failed with these things in the past, there is no reason to go the puredata/supercolider route. MaxMSP is much more user-friendly, and given that it integrates with Ableton, it's a good investment to learn that. You can always code in C/Java and import that in MaxMSP as well.

[SunkLo]

Or of course Reaktor.

[samurai]

if you're a student you can get the educational version of Max 6 for much cheaper. I like Pure Data but I think that Max is much better for beginners. the amount of inbuilt tutorials and resources available on the web for it are crazy. plus in Max 6 the references and help guides for each object have been vastly improved IMO. Max 6 was really an update to make the whole program more user friendly.

I say download the Max 6 demo http://cycling74.com/downloads/
then head to http://www.peterbatchelor.com/maxTuts.html and work your way through those tutorials. it should give you a good working knowledge of the fundamentals of the program.

[zeta]

If you are not a programmer or have failed with these things in the past, there is no reason to go the puredata/supercolider route. MaxMSP is much more user-friendly, and given that it integrates with Ableton, it's a good investment to learn that. You can always code in C/Java and import that in MaxMSP as well.

if you're a student you can get the educational version of Max 6 for much cheaper. I like Pure Data but I think that Max is much better for beginners. the amount of inbuilt tutorials and resources available on the web for it are crazy. plus in Max 6 the references and help guides for each object have been vastly improved IMO. Max 6 was really an update to make the whole program more user friendly.

I say download the Max 6 demo http://cycling74.com/downloads/
then head to http://www.peterbatchelor.com/maxTuts.html and work your way through those tutorials. it should give you a good working knowledge of the fundamentals of the program.

In terms of flexibility and capability, how do Max and Pure Data compare? Do they roughly have the same ability in customising, creating sounds, programming, etc?

[alphacat]

...the open-source roustabouts won the first round 4-2. From what I gathered from this, pd-extended is easier to use (assuming both teams were advanced users), and required fewer elements to create a working patch. On the other hand, Max/MSP is far prettier to look at, and easier to teach, with its instant graphic elements.

Continue reading at NowPublic.com: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better: MIDI Software Duel (pdextended.mov) | NowPublic Video Archives http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/anyth ... z2Qx5th5SN

[zeta]

...the open-source roustabouts won the first round 4-2. From what I gathered from this, pd-extended is easier to use (assuming both teams were advanced users), and required fewer elements to create a working patch. On the other hand, Max/MSP is far prettier to look at, and easier to teach, with its instant graphic elements.

Continue reading at NowPublic.com: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better: MIDI Software Duel (pdextended.mov) | NowPublic Video Archives http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/anyth ... z2Qx5th5SN

Ah, I see.

So would it be better to just try to slog through pd-extended, since in the long run it's eventually easier to use, learn Max/MSP then convert to pd at a later date since it's far easier, or just be extremely skillful at Max/MSP?

[samurai]

what kind of stuff do you want to be doing?

[zeta]

what kind of stuff do you want to be doing?

At the moment, I'm not sure - I decided to learn it to increase my flexibility as a producer and musician. I'll probably not be using it for anything multimedia or visual - for sound experimentation and making interesting synths and vsts, I think, as well as (hopefully one day) connecting it for use to sampling and recording, as well as using it in tandem with a physical instrument.

I read a while ago that Jonny Greenwood designed custom music software and programmes for use with Radiohead both in the studio and live, which was really cool and inspiring to me, and the reason I decided to give it a go.

[NinjaEdit]

It might be better to use software which interacts with a host, if you're willing to pay money. Max For Live and Reaktor have been mentioned. SynthEdit and SynthMaster export to VST if you wanted to distribute them.

You won't have to register the Beta of SynthEdit.

[claudedefaren]

if it interests you, just get your hands dirty and if it turns out to be not for you, wash your hands..

[samurai]

if you just want to build effects and synths then you might be happier with something like Reaktor (which is kind of focused on these sort of things).

but if you want to integrate real instruments into your electronic performances (send data from real world sensors to an application you've made) then Max would be perfect for that.

[zeta]

if you just want to build effects and synths then you might be happier with something like Reaktor (which is kind of focused on these sort of things).

but if you want to integrate real instruments into your electronic performances (send data from real world sensors to an application you've made) then Max would be perfect for that.

Ah, okay.

Since you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about the various modular environments, do you mind giving me a run down on what the strongest points of Max and Pure Data are? I'm guessing it's a bit like DAW comparison - both being able to accomplish the same things with the right know-how, though certain areas are stronger and weaker.

Because I want to be able to create my own effects and synths but also to integrate real instruments and do electronic effects with them. So if Reaktor is specifically made for effects and synths as you say - would Max/Msp do them well also, since I do want to be able to use real instruments?

[samurai]

I wouldn't be that knowledgable at all, I just am really interested visual programming environments.

I've been using Max for about 3 years now (just before I started college). I had used Reaktor and Pure Data a bit before that.

first things first Pure Data and Max could be described for all intents and purposes as being almost functionally identical. these programs are basically designed to do the same sort of things. the above example about Pure Data being faster to work in was more of a fun example rather than a serious comparison between the 2 environments.

Pure Data can be just looked upon as the open-source alternative to Max. like I mentioned previously I use Max now, but some of my lecturers have a lot of experience with Pure Data as well, and they say they're both basically the same program with only slight differences. one advantage that Pure Data does have is that it can runs on more systems (eg. linux). you can also port patches to the Android system, so if that's something you're interested in then go for Pure Data.

however if you're not interested in that then I would wholeheartedly recommend Max over Pure Data. I cannot overstate how important the inclusion of the inbuilt tutorials and references in Max are. the documentation for Max floors that which is available for Pure Data. so if you have no prior experience with programming then you should most definitely consider Max.
(to give you an example of how "different" both these tools are you should look at the user-base of each group. both tools are being used to accomplish the same type of things. however Pure Data is much more popular in the open-source community, whereas Max is used a lot in the academic community.)

when you say that you want to do electronic effects to real instruments what exactly do you mean? because you may be able to do that with Reaktor. remember Reaktor is built and designed specifically to deal with the creation of audio tools. because of that it is "better" at Max when it comes to creating these tools.

however (IMO) even if I was only going to be making simple synths and effects, I would still choose Max over Reaktor. simply because (IMO) the actual patching environment in Max is much superior to that in Reaktor, ie. it's much easier to work in Max than it is in Reaktor. to me Reaktor seems like such a bloaty development environment (I love it as a plugin though!!!).

[zeta]

I wouldn't be that knowledgable at all, I just am really interested visual programming environments.

I've been using Max for about 3 years now (just before I started college). I had used Reaktor and Pure Data a bit before that.

first things first Pure Data and Max could be described for all intents and purposes as being almost functionally identical. these programs are basically designed to do the same sort of things. the above example about Pure Data being faster to work in was more of a fun example rather than a serious comparison between the 2 environments.

Pure Data can be just looked upon as the open-source alternative to Max. like I mentioned previously I use Max now, but some of my lecturers have a lot of experience with Pure Data as well, and they say they're both basically the same program with only slight differences. one advantage that Pure Data does have is that it can runs on more systems (eg. linux). you can also port patches to the Android system, so if that's something you're interested in then go for Pure Data.

however if you're not interested in that then I would wholeheartedly recommend Max over Pure Data. I cannot overstate how important the inclusion of the inbuilt tutorials and references in Max are. the documentation for Max floors that which is available for Pure Data. so if you have no prior experience with programming then you should most definitely consider Max.
(to give you an example of how "different" both these tools are you should look at the user-base of each group. both tools are being used to accomplish the same type of things. however Pure Data is much more popular in the open-source community, whereas Max is used a lot in the academic community.)

when you say that you want to do electronic effects to real instruments what exactly do you mean? because you may be able to do that with Reaktor. remember Reaktor is built and designed specifically to deal with the creation of audio tools. because of that it is "better" at Max when it comes to creating these tools.

however (IMO) even if I was only going to be making simple synths and effects, I would still choose Max over Reaktor. simply because (IMO) the actual patching environment in Max is much superior to that in Reaktor, ie. it's much easier to work in Max than it is in Reaktor. to me Reaktor seems like such a bloaty development environment (I love it as a plugin though!!!).

For a small example, say I want to create a 'stuttered' amp for use with an electric guitar, or make a randomised step sequencer for playing on keyboards, or even create or use an effects rack that will radically change a real instrument based on a set of parameters. On the flipside, I also want to be able to create custom synths, samplers and software for recording in the studio, programming beats on the studio and playing live.

Basically just a patching environment that is efficient for all kind of things, and that if I need to use it for something else, I can just simply boot it up and start fiddling around and put my ideas to screen.

[samurai]

you could probably create most of your ideas with Reaktor, however Max may or may not be easier to work with (depending on your preference).

I think Reaktor has a demo, but I know that Max definitely does. try out the 30-day demo. do all the tutorials and then see how you feel!!

[drooka]

i'd say give max a whirl for sure, loads of possibilities with it. had a professor who was involved in designing the original program and some of the capabilities he showed me were absolutely mindblowing. haven't used the new one, but the version i tinkered with was pretty intuitive with the tutorials and such

[alphacat]

Yeah... I also don't think it has to be mutually exclusive: they are siblings of a sort, after all.

If you have an iPhone there's an interesting PD interface editor called MobMuPlat; jump in, get your feet wet, learn some of the basic function calls and syntax, and about 90% will be relevant when you pick up with Max.

One thing I love about Max is the user community tho... You want a techno water fountain show with LEDs and crazy strobing water FX? There's already like 8 Max patches for that, LOL.

[alphacat]

Along this tangent:

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/05/c ... -own-apps/