Want to buy some software.

[SunkLo]

Yeah I'd go for some proper monitors first if I were you. I'd be more worried about the quality of the monitors over having a sub. I bet your room sounds like shit so a sub is just gonna make things worse.

You might just be better off buying high end headphones, at least while you save for proper monitors and room treatment. Then getting some nice monitors, a good interface, some homemade bass traps and broadband panels installed, and then adding in a sub last if you need it.

[bassbum]

Yeah I'd go for some proper monitors first if I were you. I'd be more worried about the quality of the monitors over having a sub. I bet your room sounds like shit so a sub is just gonna make things worse.

It's funny you say that I just moved around my whole flat for better acoustics.

For bass music I feel a sub is essential. I was just writing about this in another thread, it's really hard to make good clean subs on headphones. It sound ridiculous to me to even listen to bass music with out a sub. Isn't that like trying to look at blue art on a screen that doesn't display the color blue?

Obviously having the sound quality of a pro studio would be cool but for me I only need it to be so good. IMO it's about knowing the way your setup sounds than heaving amazing sound quality.

[bassbum]

What do you guys think of the Roland CMs anyway?

[SunkLo]

I'd agree that hearing an accurate representation of the low frequencies is essential, but I don't think adding more sub in an untreated room is the way to accomplish that.

How big is your control room? Does it have decent dimensions? You'd probably see a better increase in quality by treating your room really well compared to buying more expensive monitors.

[sburton84]

It's more efficient to have all the features available individually.

The advanced version of Ozone does exactly that. Though I just checked how much it actually costs

[Barka]

For bass music I feel a sub is essential. I was just writing about this in another thread, it's really hard to make good clean subs on headphones. It sound ridiculous to me to even listen to bass music with out

I disagree. While I would love to have a sub to monitor with, in a less then ideal room they can really decieve you, while on studio headphones you have more or less linear bass response. I have a sub for general listening though, and it's nice to check mixes with that regardless.

[SunkLo]

Hahah I didn't say that. Ya blew it on the quote.

But yeah subs are for fun, not mixing, unless you have a primo room. Having a bunch of sub boom just makes it harder to hear what's actually going on down there.

[eyeatus]

wave arts power suite

[bassbum]

For bass music I feel a sub is essential. I was just writing about this in another thread, it's really hard to make good clean subs on headphones. It sound ridiculous to me to even listen to bass music with out

I disagree. While I would love to have a sub to monitor with, in a less then ideal room they can really decieve you, while on studio headphones you have more or less linear bass response. I have a sub for general listening though, and it's nice to check mixes with that regardless.

I agree in a way but in the same way are most headphones not deceiving? Who says my room is not ideal? With headphones sure you can here the bass without the room changing the sound but you can't feel the bass you can only here it. Bass is meant to be felt and heard IMO. I'm yet to get a pair of headphones that can play 50hz and bellow right.

Some would even say that you can only really hear a track on a club system. I know some meany people who didn't like Dubstep until they when to a club because they couldn't understand the bass until they could feel it. When I got my first sub everything I was doing with any frequency bellow 150hz changed.

Music production 101 at college was do not mix on headphones. I can also remember the old forum pros a few years back saying that you can't mix on headphones.

[SunkLo]

Properly driven headphones with low extension will probably be more accurate than a standard bedroom. Feeling the bass falls under fun. Listening with speakers and a sub is more fun that headphones, but quite often less accurate. I'd rather have a gentle roll off on headphones than completely uneven bass response due to room resonance and blurry lows from room reverb.

There are good circum-aural cans that have quite extended low frequency response. The best subs I've heard were on a pair of Sony cans with 4hz bass extension. You're going to have to acclimatize to your monitoring setup either way, so I'd rather it be clean and clinical with a gentle roll off vs the muddiness that results from blasting bass from a boomy sub.

[Simulant]

Monitoring sub bass on headphones is never going to work! Half of hearing a sub is feeling it, you'll never get that in headphones. It's real bad advice to recommend mixing bass on headphones, what you should be doing is switching between both. Headphones are good at hearing details, monitors are better for bass and stereo imaging.

And to the guy who said having a sub makes it harder to hear sub bass -

[SunkLo]

Oh you'll hear more of it alright, it certainly won't be harder to hear. Let's put some reverb and resonant peak filters on it too, then we'll hear it even better!

[Simulant]

Oh you'll hear more of it alright, it certainly won't be harder to hear. Let's put some reverb and resonant peak filters on it too, then we'll hear it even better!

Wow, you've got a real bad attitude. No need to be a dick about it - you said above that it would be harder to hear.

But yeah subs are for fun, not mixing, unless you have a primo room. Having a bunch of sub boom just makes it harder to hear what's actually going on down there.

Subs are for fun? Having a sub makes it harder to hear the bass? Wtf?

Everyone I've every worked with used monitors, and headphones to check fine details. This is a standard setup - I don't know what makes you think you can reinvent the wheel? If your rooms boomy, get some treatment. Standard.

Sub Focus actually held his hand on the woofer in one of his vids, so he could feel the bass. Interesting idea. Part of bass is feeling, you're never going to be able to judge it well on headphones. And it's harder to judge dynamics on cans too. Seriously, I've never come across anyone making bass music who didn't want to hear the bass. And 4hz headphones? You trippin?

Music production 101 at college was do not mix on headphones. I can also remember the old forum pros a few years back saying that you can't mix on headphones.

Yeah, that's exactly what I've been taught. Monitors for mixing, headphones for details.

[bassbum]

@Simulant

Everything you said is what I have taught and experienced to be right. I know a lot of bass music producers will keep a hand or foot on a sub when playing with basses. I do it because it gives me a better picture of the sound that my ears can.

@SunkLo
You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Most rooms wont make that much of a difference to the sound. There is a huge difference though between a crap £50 sub and a £500 pair of headphones, with the sub winning. Also so you don't get confused with what Simulant said... You use headphones for highfrequecy detail and panning, never ever ever sub.

You must not have a sub in your room because if you did you wouldn't be saying that.

[SunkLo]

I'm not being a dick, why don't you chill and read what I'm actually saying. I didn't say I didn't want to hear the bass, that's retarded. I said I wanted accurate, even bass. Stop regurgitating shit you learned from a Dubspot sample video and use your head for a second.

Sub boom makes it harder to hear what's going on. It obviously doesn't make it harder to hear sub because that's probably all you'll be hearing. You want clean subs, not a bunch of reverbed sub that resonates at random notes. At least I want that. You may not care if your sub programming just consists of putting bar long sustained notes under everything. But I use sub as a rhythmic tool so I like it tight and clean.

I've already said if you have a well proportioned room with proper treatment then nice monitors with a sub is the way to go. But the cost of that compared to a good headphone setup is pretty significant. If your room's not the right size or proportions or you're not willing to spend enough money to have a quality speaker setup, then you're better off going headphones and a spectrum analyzer. You're going to need to A/B on several systems no matter what, but I guarantee headphones will get you closer than a sub in a small room with minimal sound treatment.

Not trippin, I've got subsonic cans. They're flat below 300hz. You can feel the bass on them too. I guarantee if you measured your room and compared a spectrogram or waterfall graph to that of a pair of good headphones, you'd agree with what I'm saying.

[bassbum]

OK dude, you know more than me, all the tutors that taught me in my 3 years of music tech at Thames Valley University, Simulant, every one who taught Simulant and every vet on this forum whos opinion I respect.

[Genevieve]

Headphones aren't optimal for sub, but better than a boomy sub in a small poorly/untreated room.

Nothing beats full range speakers in a perfect studio environment, but we're not talking about that situation.

Panning for headphones though? Width in headphones doesn't translate well to speakers. Speakers don't have perfect stereo imaging while headphones do. So what sounds right on headphones won't sound right on speakers.

[SunkLo]

^Maybe if someone else says it, it'll click.

Compare the low end response of your average room to these cans for instance:



Linear beyond the lower limit of hearing. They're obviously pretty trash for mixing mids and highs, but great low reference.


I know everyone holds their precious subs dear to their hearts and they've been told a million times that headphones are the devil. But in less than ideal circumstances, headphones can be the better performer.

[bassbum]

Headphones aren't optimal for sub, but better than a boomy sub in a small poorly/untreated room.

Nothing beats full range speakers in a perfect studio environment, but we're not talking about that situation.

Panning for headphones though? Width in headphones doesn't translate well to speakers. Speakers don't have perfect stereo imaging while headphones do. So what sounds right on headphones won't sound right on speakers.

Yes you have some reflections and resonances but headphone are not perfect, and your acting like they are. Most headphone have real punch in the bass at 200hz and everything bellow 100hz gets quiteter as you go down. That IMO is not the accurate representation of sound that you're talking about. Also when you can only hear the bass you don't have an idea of how it would feel. Bass music has emphasis on the bass and bass is meant to be feelt and played with a sub, preferably in a club. Taking that into account would you say your headphone experience is an accurate representation of bass music?

Not every room is going to give you big problems... so even then I guess it depends. Even in a small room with a floor that really shakes at 50hz I would still want a sub than use any headphones from my collection.

Other than today I have only ever heard noobs talking about headphone being better, and that ever in my life.

@SunkLo
The bass on thoughts headphones is pretty flat do you have a link so I can see them? Looking at it you might be able to mix bass on them but you still cant feel it and get the atmosphere a sub gives.

[Genevieve]

I'm not acting like they're perfect at all. I'm saying that NOTHING is perfect in a small and untreated room.

Headphones aren't accurate.

Monitors in an untreated room aren't accurate.

Subs in untreated, small rooms drown your room in subbass.

But if you know your headphones, monitors and your (minimally treated) room, they alll add up to a more accurate representation if you know how to crossreference everything they're supposed to represent, at the fraction of a cost of full range monitors in a perfectly treated room. And on a budget, headphones beat out any monitoring setup. Again, not OPTIMAL, but we're comparing 'better' to 'worse', not 'best' vs 'worse'.

I'll never deny that full range speakers with good treatment are optimal or that headphones aren't that great for sub. But this isn't about 'great', but 'better than worse', in a specific environment.