Want to buy some software.

[Genevieve]

This thread draws me in liek crack. At least the urge to post is gone

[fragments]

Seriously, I can't stop reading either.

[SunkLo]

Don't start bringing appeal to authorities into the conversation, that's fucking retarded. We all appeal to authority, seeing as how we're speaking English and went through an education system. We all have something to learn from other people and have all learned from others in the past. I asked you why almost every producer uses monitors and headphones, you called me a twat for "reading computer music videos", whatever the hell that means? So, please tell me - why do all successful producers use monitors and headphones? And why should I believe a random forum troll over the advice I've had from my peers for the past decade?

What's retarded is your reasoning in this paragraph.

To answer your question, I've already stated several times that professionals will have more money invested in their setups. I've also already stated that given a higher budget, monitors in a treated room are the way to go. I've also already stated that given a lower budget however, headphones provide better and more flexible monitoring. I'm getting tired of repeating myself here. I bet I'd do terribly as a special ed teacher, I don't have the patience I guess.

Thanks for the deluge of videos. Do you really think these guys producing in bedrooms on monitors have amazing monitoring setups? They make good tunes in spite of their monitoring, not because of it.

And the facts are that headphones don't have any cross-feed, and we're making stereo music. So it's necessary to hear the cross-feed to be able to accurately check the balance of the different instruments and to hear the stereo image correctly and check for phasing issues. This really is mixing 101 and it pains me to have to spell it out. I suppose if you want to make music in mono then it doesn't matter so much, but most of us want stereo.

If cross feed is so vital, put something like TB Isone on your master. Woo, the mythical crossfeed! Checking phase issues on monitors...
Speakers are more crippled in terms of stereo information than headphones. You can get amazingly convincing stereo sound on headphones with binaural recording and stereo tricks. People have to test on speakers to make sure that it still sounds alright when played on a stereo.

The other fact is that sub bass is low frequency audio and is felt as much as it is heard. I don't know how old you are, but if you've ever been to a nightclub you'll know what I mean, you feel it literally shaking you. Now, headphones cannot reproduce that feeling, so how are you going to monitor it? With your ears? With a spectrum analyser that uses fft(which isn't accurate in the low end)? Or with a combination of headphones and monitors? I choose the option that gives me the most detail - headphones and monitors.

Jeez choosing between monitoring on a spectrum analyzer or headphones and monitors... what a tough decision! Again, I have to reiterate that given the budget, headphones and monitors are the way to go. But given the choice of headphones OR monitors, it's headphones.

I also refute the necessity to feel your chest rattle while mixing. That's fine for the club or for testing your mix afterwards to make sure it has that visceral quality. But I doubt you'll be tweaking your sub buss processing until it rattles just the right ratio of ribs. The primary concerns for sub monitoring are that:
A - the frequency response is even. Go back several pages to where I posted that headphone graph and compare it to a graph of your room.
B - the subs are tight so you can properly assess dynamics instead of hearing big boomy piles of incomprehensible bass mud.
The two aspects that headphones eliminate compared to monitors, resonance and reverb, just so happen to be the two antagonists to these monitoring criteria.

And I might even get a sub.

I saw your post saying that subs make it harder to hear the sub bass and had to say something! Dear oh dear.

You're still failing terribly at reading comprehension. I said it makes it harder to hear what's going on in the sub range. Not harder to hear the sub itself. I've also already clarified this point when you brought it up before. How many times am I going to have to correct your misinterpretations of things I say?

Anyhow, I hope that answers whatever you wanted answering? Although all you really did was rant on and on in your last post, I don't know what you actually were asking? Please try to stick to the topic and don't act like such a whiny bitch.

Calls me a troll? Check.
Parrots my own insults back at me? Check.
Ignores important parts and fixates on insignificant things? Check.
Accuses me of ranting while mid-rant? Check.
Misinterprets and twists things just to have something to hang an argument on? Check.
Yep, this is definitely an internet argument.

Since I'm a proponent of recycling, I guess I'll repeat myself yet again...

Shout 'headphones and monitors' all you want, you're still failing to account for the fiscal limits we're talking about here. If OP had the money to buy nice monitors, room treatment and nice headphones, should he? Fucking obviously. Hell if money's not an issue, buy several sets of monitors and headphones. We're operating in the real world here, where producers have financial limits. Given those limits, headphones provide the best monitoring for the money. Period. End of. If you still try to argue that, you're stupid, stubborn, or both.

Things aren't looking good for our pal Simulant here.

[titchbit]

He's not done a lot here, I saw a similar thread a few weeks back where he was preaching the same shit. Honestly, I've never heard such crap - monitoring sub bass on headphones lol! Anyhow, why don't you fuck off and read a book on the subject, instead of calling me names and deciding to side with someone else because they've got a lot of posts.

It's got nothing to do with post count. I have respect for sunklo because I've personally read a lot of quality posts of his. And he posts daily. He's done a lot to keep the production forum active and informative.

[Simulant]

Don't start bringing appeal to authorities into the conversation, that's fucking retarded. We all appeal to authority, seeing as how we're speaking English and went through an education system. We all have something to learn from other people and have all learned from others in the past. I asked you why almost every producer uses monitors and headphones, you called me a twat for "reading computer music videos", whatever the hell that means? So, please tell me - why do all successful producers use monitors and headphones? And why should I believe a random forum troll over the advice I've had from my peers for the past decade?

What's retarded is your reasoning in this paragraph.

To answer your question, I've already stated several times that professionals will have more money invested in their setups. I've also already stated that given a higher budget, monitors in a treated room are the way to go. I've also already stated that given a lower budget however, headphones provide better and more flexible monitoring. I'm getting tired of repeating myself here. I bet I'd do terribly as a special ed teacher, I don't have the patience I guess.

Thanks for the deluge of videos. Do you really think these guys producing in bedrooms on monitors have amazing monitoring setups? They make good tunes in spite of their monitoring, not because of it.

And the facts are that headphones don't have any cross-feed, and we're making stereo music. So it's necessary to hear the cross-feed to be able to accurately check the balance of the different instruments and to hear the stereo image correctly and check for phasing issues. This really is mixing 101 and it pains me to have to spell it out. I suppose if you want to make music in mono then it doesn't matter so much, but most of us want stereo.

If cross feed is so vital, put something like TB Isone on your master. Woo, the mythical crossfeed! Checking phase issues on monitors...
Speakers are more crippled in terms of stereo information than headphones. You can get amazingly convincing stereo sound on headphones with binaural recording and stereo tricks. People have to test on speakers to make sure that it still sounds alright when played on a stereo.

The other fact is that sub bass is low frequency audio and is felt as much as it is heard. I don't know how old you are, but if you've ever been to a nightclub you'll know what I mean, you feel it literally shaking you. Now, headphones cannot reproduce that feeling, so how are you going to monitor it? With your ears? With a spectrum analyser that uses fft(which isn't accurate in the low end)? Or with a combination of headphones and monitors? I choose the option that gives me the most detail - headphones and monitors.

Jeez choosing between monitoring on a spectrum analyzer or headphones and monitors... what a tough decision! Again, I have to reiterate that given the budget, headphones and monitors are the way to go. But given the choice of headphones OR monitors, it's headphones.

I also refute the necessity to feel your chest rattle while mixing. That's fine for the club or for testing your mix afterwards to make sure it has that visceral quality. But I doubt you'll be tweaking your sub buss processing until it rattles just the right ratio of ribs. The primary concerns for sub monitoring are that:
A - the frequency response is even. Go back several pages to where I posted that headphone graph and compare it to a graph of your room.
B - the subs are tight so you can properly assess dynamics instead of hearing big boomy piles of incomprehensible bass mud.
The two aspects that headphones eliminate compared to monitors, resonance and reverb, just so happen to be the two antagonists to these monitoring criteria.

And I might even get a sub.

I saw your post saying that subs make it harder to hear the sub bass and had to say something! Dear oh dear.

You're still failing terribly at reading comprehension. I said it makes it harder to hear what's going on in the sub range. Not harder to hear the sub itself. I've also already clarified this point when you brought it up before. How many times am I going to have to correct your misinterpretations of things I say?

Anyhow, I hope that answers whatever you wanted answering? Although all you really did was rant on and on in your last post, I don't know what you actually were asking? Please try to stick to the topic and don't act like such a whiny bitch.

Calls me a troll? Check.
Parrots my own insults back at me? Check.
Ignores important parts and fixates on insignificant things? Check.
Accuses me of ranting while mid-rant? Check.
Misinterprets and twists things just to have something to hang an argument on? Check.
Yep, this is definitely an internet argument.

Since I'm a proponent of recycling, I guess I'll repeat myself yet again...

Shout 'headphones and monitors' all you want, you're still failing to account for the fiscal limits we're talking about here. If OP had the money to buy nice monitors, room treatment and nice headphones, should he? Fucking obviously. Hell if money's not an issue, buy several sets of monitors and headphones. We're operating in the real world here, where producers have financial limits. Given those limits, headphones provide the best monitoring for the money. Period. End of. If you still try to argue that, you're stupid, stubborn, or both.

Things aren't looking good for our pal Simulant here.

To me it sounds awfully like...



It appears that you're only interested in trading insults. I'm guessing your parents are related or something, because clearly you have one or two mental health issues. Bad genes? Or are you one of these people that spends all of your life desperately trying to get a bit of E-respect on forums, and always HAS to be right?

Speakers don't reveal phase issues? Wow, you are such a stupid tnuc it's unreal. Try this one - make a sound super wide on your headphones, then play it on some speakers and you'll notice that it gets quieter. That's assuming that you can get some more hours doing your paper round and actually save up and buy yourself some fucking speakers.

Christ, I don't even know what else to say or pick out from your big confusing rant. Did you have anything specific you wanted me to respond to? Or did you just want to call each other names a bit more? Perhaps you'd feel better clicking on a random insult generator for a few hours? That'll save me having to reply to your long uninspiring and incredibly dull posts. Honestly I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thing, trying to pick through the actual discussion from the insults. Grow the fuck up and learn to discuss things like a man.

[3za]

Oh sheit dis still going on... I tink we all now wat dis calls 4...










































TUNE BATTLE!!! TUNE BATTLE!!! TUNE BATTLE!!!

[SunkLo]

I can never tell whether the blatant hypocrisy is on purpose as a troll or completely genuine.

For the record, I'm an audio editor, not a paper boy.
And I mix on.................................................................. headphones!

We're getting close to page 7 which means bicep contest! (featuring Fragments' dick)

[SunkLo]

It appears that you're only interested in trading insults. I'm guessing your parents are related or something, because clearly you have one or two mental health issues. Bad genes? Or are you one of these people that spends all of your life desperately trying to get a bit of E-respect on forums, and always HAS to be right?

Nah I sprinkle some reason in between my insults. While you just echo my own insults back at me.
Why would I be trying to gain respect on forums? Trying doesn't get you anywhere anyways. I just post whatever I think is relevant and whether people like it or not, that's fine. I don't really think I'm lacking in respect around here. There are people who appreciate my posts and respect me for it and vice versa. That's how a community works. You'd probably get more respect by being objective instead of trying to win silly arguments all the time.

Speakers don't reveal phase issues? Wow, you are such a stupid tnuc it's unreal. Try this one - make a sound super wide on your headphones, then play it on some speakers and you'll notice that it gets quieter. That's assuming that you can get some more hours doing your paper round and actually save up and buy yourself some fucking speakers.

"Phase problems" isn't limited to stereo phase problems. That's really only an issue if you're stupid with your stereo processing. You're saying headphones are vital to discovering this problem? You ever heard of a mono switch?

Christ, I don't even know what else to say or pick out from your big confusing rant. Did you have anything specific you wanted me to respond to? Or did you just want to call each other names a bit more? Perhaps you'd feel better clicking on a random insult generator for a few hours? That'll save me having to reply to your long uninspiring and incredibly dull posts. Honestly I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thing, trying to pick through the actual discussion from the insults. Grow the fuck up and learn to discuss things like a man.

Did I have something I wanted you to respond to? Not really, I've pretty much been responding to all your arguments thus far. You've just kind of been deflecting everything I say. If you want to argue with a condensed version of what I'm saying, try this:

We're operating in the real world here, where producers have financial limits. Given those limits, headphones provide the best monitoring for the money.

Go ahead and point out where that's wrong. Thanks.

Sorry if my posts are uninspiring. I tried to jazz them up with pictures and bright colors to keep your attention.

[Simulant]

Nah I sprinkle some reason in between my insults. While you just echo my own insults back at me.
Why would I be trying to gain respect on forums? Trying doesn't get you anywhere anyways. I just post whatever I think is relevant and whether people like it or not, that's fine. I don't really think I'm lacking in respect around here. There are people who appreciate my posts and respect me for it and vice versa. That's how a community works. You'd probably get more respect by being objective instead of trying to win silly arguments all the time.

Wow, you're really clutching at straws! So, this one argument with you means that I'm trying to win silly arguments "all the time"?

"Phase problems" isn't limited to stereo phase problems. That's really only an issue if you're stupid with your stereo processing. You're saying headphones are vital to discovering this problem? You ever heard of a mono switch?

No, I'm saying that monitors are useful to hear the correct balance of instruments. You keep accusing me of not reading your responses, yet you continually fail to understand mine. Past your bedtime is it little bed wetter?

We're operating in the real world here, where producers have financial limits. Given those limits, headphones provide the best monitoring for the money.

What limits? A few hundred pounds for your career? And you're trying to tell me that you're an audio editor? Lol fuck off son, you're a joke. Don't worry little boy, I'm sure the nice guy at the newsagents will give you a couple of extra rounds if you ask nicely. Then you can put it in your piggy bank and save up for a nice pair of speakers.

And yet again, you've FAILED to answer my question:

Why do the vast majority of producers use both headphones and monitors?

Why?

Do you think you know more than Benga? He used monitors in that video, are you saying that your skill and knowledge is superior to Benga's? Do you think that your skill surpasses that of Bengas?

Thanks for the deluge of videos. Do you really think these guys producing in bedrooms on monitors have amazing monitoring setups? They make good tunes in spite of their monitoring, not because of it.

So, you're admitting I'm right then? Seeing as how you admit that they make good tunes without having perfect rooms! Cool, now FUCK OFF!

[SunkLo]

Wow, you're really clutching at straws! So, this one argument with you means that I'm trying to win silly arguments "all the time"?

Well the majority of your posts on the forum are in this thread arguing with me so... yes.

No, I'm saying that monitors are useful to hear the correct balance of instruments. You keep accusing me of not reading your responses, yet you continually fail to understand mine. Past your bedtime is it little bed wetter?

And you can't balance instruments on headphones?

What limits? A few hundred pounds for your career? And you're trying to tell me that you're an audio editor?

Yeah some people can't afford to pay a couple grand for monitors and room treatment and would rather pay a few hundred for a headphone setup instead.
Yes I'm an audio editor for a tv show. I was about to start on the latest episode tonight but I'm gonna put it off until tomorrow since I haven't been sent narration stems yet.

And yet again, you've FAILED to answer my question: Why do the vast majority of producers use both headphones and monitors?

I've already answered this several times actually. Because they can afford to have both. Or because they can justify spending all their money on audio gear since it's their profession. Or because they've been told that's what they should do.

Do you think you know more than Benga? He used monitors in that video, are you saying that your skill and knowledge is superior to Benga's? Do you think that your skill surpasses that of Bengas?

No disrespect to Benga, but yeah actually. There's probably a fair bit of technical knowledge that I have which Benga is lacking. I haven't watched that video in ages but if I recall correctly he said a few derpy things during it and seemed to be doing a lot by trial and error. No slight against the man since he's obviously managed to make some serious tunes with the knowledge and experience he has. Clearly the creative skills are much more important than sound engineering skills when it comes to making music. You can have a well engineered track that still sounds like shit vs a poorly engineered track that still bangs.

Maybe Benga wasn't the best example to choose. Either way, I think you might be putting these producers too high up on a pedestal. Whenever I've watched producer videos, it's rare that someone strikes me as an exceptionally brilliant engineer. Most guys are just your average EDM producer who's got a knack for composition and has put the work in. I don't think the average dubstep producer has any high level knowledge of psycho-acoustics or anything. Most of them know enough to get by; their experience lies in music creation which is vastly more important.

The majority are not at the technical level of a pro mixing or mastering engineer (like Macc for instance) So while I value their input on creation and production, I take anything technical with a grain of salt and do my own research to form opinions of my own.

So, you're admitting I'm right then? Seeing as how you admit that they make good tunes without having perfect rooms! Cool, now FUCK OFF!

When did I ever say it was impossible to make good tunes without perfect monitoring?
What I've been saying from the beginning is that it's very possible to make good sounding tracks on a rather inexpensive headphone monitoring setup.


Judging by how defensive you are and how much you're projecting shit on to me, I imagine you finally understand what I've been trying to say and realize you've made an ass of yourself. Now this is just useless bickering to try and save face.

Or in your own words,

clutching at straws!

[bassbum]

I want to post in this thread but this shit is getting personal and I don't want to be dragged into that shit for no reason.

[SunkLo]

I want to post in this thread but this shit is getting personal and I don't want to be dragged into that shit for no reason.

FUCK YOU DICKHEAD!

[bassbum]

Check my sig.. I thought it was ironic.

[SunkLo]

Ironic how?

[bassbum]

Ironic how?

People on the forum regularly tell me my English is terrible.

[SunkLo]

Oh hah well shame on you!

[wub]

You lot are embarrassing sometimes