Gain Staging Question

[almostskate100]

Hey all,

About a year ago, I read the Moneyshot thread several times over, and I thought I understood and internalized it pretty well. However, recently I've started to re-evaluate my mixing strategy. Basically, I know that mixing quiet is generally good practice, but whenever I'm doing my mixes, it seems like I have to turn the volume on my laptop all the way up just to hear the mix (and it's still pretty quiet).

In general, I'd start with my kick at -12 dB or so, and mix everything else relative to that. However, with the way I'm doing things, the fader for the kick might read -12 but it's actually peaking much lower than that, which I guess is why my mixes tend to be unnecessarily quiet.

I know this seems very nit picky, but is the goal to make your kick peak at around -12 dB or so (obviously these numbers are somewhat arbitrary)? And if so, should I be setting all of the volume levels on each sampler (since this is a drum rack) to 0 instead of the default -12 so that the faders depict a more accurate representation of the sound levels? It seems like just putting the fader at -12 dB wouldn't lead to consistent mixes, since different samples have different peak volumes by default (if that makes sense?).

I thought I had this somewhat figured out, but I threw myself in a loop last night thinking about this

[Triphosphate]

Hey all,

About a year ago, I read the Moneyshot thread several times over, and I thought I understood and internalized it pretty well. However, recently I've started to re-evaluate my mixing strategy. Basically, I know that mixing quiet is generally good practice, but whenever I'm doing my mixes, it seems like I have to turn the volume on my laptop all the way up just to hear the mix (and it's still pretty quiet).

In general, I'd start with my kick at -12 dB or so, and mix everything else relative to that. However, with the way I'm doing things, the fader for the kick might read -12 but it's actually peaking much lower than that, which I guess is why my mixes tend to be unnecessarily quiet.

I know this seems very nit picky, but is the goal to make your kick peak at around -12 dB or so (obviously these numbers are somewhat arbitrary)? And if so, should I be setting all of the volume levels on each sampler (since this is a drum rack) to 0 instead of the default -12 so that the faders depict a more accurate representation of the sound levels? It seems like just putting the fader at -12 dB wouldn't lead to consistent mixes, since different samples have different peak volumes by default (if that makes sense?).

I thought I had this somewhat figured out, but I threw myself in a loop last night thinking about this

I could be wrong, but it sounds like the kick you've chosen in this example isn't normalized. If you normalize it and then drag its fader down to -12 it should be peaking at -12.

I usually mix very quietly, too. I put a nice limiter on the master that I toggle on and off to get a general idea of how the track would sound loud.

[bassbum]

If you compress the individual tracks more you will have a louder sounding mix.

[Genevieve]

Say your sample is -5.4 db. THEN you put the fader down to -12, the sample itself will be -17.4 db. The faders regulate what you feed into them, if that's a quiet signal and you turn it down, it'll be more quiet.

What I do is have every sample except hi-hats as loud as possible before I arrange them and I never bother checking how loud the individual tracks are. I try to get my drums to sound good as a whole then feed them into a drum master bus, and then I try to get the ACTUAL OVERAL SIGNAL of ALL THE DRUMS TOGETHER to peak at around -10 to -12 db, depending on the tune (that's literally the only time I check except for how loud anything is until the tune is done and I check the master output). When my drums peak at -12, I mix the entire track around that by ear.

[Triphosphate]

In short, ignore the numbers on the faders and pay more attention to the numbers on the meters? unless you normalize the samples in which case they should be equal?

[almostskate100]

I could be wrong, but it sounds like the kick you've chosen in this example isn't normalized. If you normalize it and then drag its fader down to -12 it should be peaking at -12.

I usually mix very quietly, too. I put a nice limiter on the master that I toggle on and off to get a general idea of how the track would sound loud.

So you're saying I need to go through and normalize every sample basically..?

Say your sample is -5.4 db. THEN you put the fader down to -12, the sample itself will be -17.4 db. The faders regulate what you feed into them, if that's a quiet signal and you turn it down, it'll be more quiet.

What I do is have every sample except hi-hats as loud as possible before I arrange them and I never bother checking how loud the individual tracks are. I try to get my drums to sound good as a whole then feed them into a drum master bus, and then I try to get the ACTUAL OVERAL SIGNAL of ALL THE DRUMS TOGETHER to peak at around -10 to -12 db, depending on the tune (that's literally the only time I check except for how loud anything is until the tune is done and I check the master output). When my drums peak at -12, I mix the entire track around that by ear.

Hmm... this makes a little more sense to me. Especially the first thing you said. I guess I'm just sort of confused because there's all of these different points in the signal chain where the volume gets modified (original sample volume, in sampler, in the group, in the drum rack...). I guess the most important part then is to just read the peak volumes.

[Triphosphate]

So you're saying I need to go through and normalize every sample basically..?

If you want -12 on the fader to be -12 on the meter, then yes. But it's really not necessary, unless you're OCD about that kind of thing... The peak on the meters is the significant figure.

[almostskate100]

In short, ignore the numbers on the faders and pay more attention to the numbers on the meters? unless you normalize the samples in which case they should be equal?

Ya that's what I was thinking. And I only just found out yesterday that by expanding the faders in Ableton you can press a button to read the actual peak values

[blinx]

Its a good idea to keep an eye on your RMS values aswell. Just because one element or sound peaked at -12 it doesnt NOT mean the drums are actually at -12 but instead could be more like -9 RMS. And lastly your ears trump all peak/rms values.

[sburton84]

is the goal to make your kick peak at around -12 dB or so

Yes.

So you're saying I need to go through and normalize every sample basically..?

No, just turn the fader up a bit.

Just because one element or sound peaked at -12 it doesnt NOT mean the drums are actually at -12 but instead could be more like -9 RMS.

It is impossible for the RMS to be higher than the peak value.

[SubbaseDnB]

i also read that thread,and now i start with all my faders at -10
one thing the drums should peak about -8-12 is that on the master meter,or the drum buss meter??

EDIT:also i keep hearing different things about normalizing,some say dont do it,because it makes no sense(bob katz etc)some say do it

[Genevieve]

one thing the drums should peak about -8-12 is that on the master meter,or the drum buss meter??

If you're master's at 0, that should be the same thing?

[Triphosphate]

i also read that thread,and now i start with all my faders at -10
one thing the drums should peak about -8-12 is that on the master meter,or the drum buss meter??

EDIT:also i keep hearing different things about normalizing,some say dont do it,because it makes no sense(bob katz etc)some say do it

Like Genevieve said, they should be the same thing if the master is at unity gain.

Also, I thought I would point out that instead of setting all of your faders to -10, that you should perhaps get all of your instruments down in volume through other means, as early in the chain as possible, and leave your faders at unity. For example on a synth, turn it's level down, or use a trim plugin (FL studio has Fruity Balance, which is great for this). The reason for this is so that later you have higher resolution on your faders when you want to make fine adjustments.

[SubbaseDnB]

one small thing,i have my mix peaking at -6

i use the maximizer in ozone 5 when doing my masters,for the people that use ozone,do you just crank the maximizer up so it Peaks at 0db or what?

[mthrfnk]

one small thing,i have my mix peaking at -6

i use the maximizer in ozone 5 when doing my masters,for the people that use ozone,do you just crank the maximizer up so it Peaks at 0db or what?

Read the fucking manual