The Subway & Pizza Express fall under She-Ra law mega thread

[ultraspatial]

also if a human isn't interested in any future goals whatsoever is it alright to kill him/her too?

[Muncey]

Do you need to purposely breed, cage, keep in (more often than not) terrible conditions animals purely so you can then kill them for food? Also thats the ones we get to eat, imagine the amount of chicken and stuff that never makes it to shops.. killed and thrown away for nothing. You can't be completely okay with that and pretend slitting a cows throat is way out of line and should be banned, I don't see how you can be that passionate about it.. how most meat is produced and how halal meat is produced really isn't that far apart on the moral spectrum in my eyes.. but people go on like eating meat is vegan and halal meat is like some weird fetish torture for days on end.

Again, I don't agree with Halal meat or putting any animal under unnecessary suffering but as a meat eater I'm not that much better and should be in no position to criticize. Like someone who spends their who life robbing people then calls for someones head because of an online scam. You can't give moral lectures on things when you've not got your own morals in check.

[scspkr99]

Do they? A predispostion to surviving is not the same as an interest in not dying, to what extent do you think death is an concept available to animals? I'll accept they can partner up and feel loss and that they can feel pain isn't controversial but that they have an interest in not dying can't be inferred from that.

In any case I'm prepared to accept the possibility that not eating meat is better than eating meat but I am not prepared to accept that animals suffering at death is better than them not suffering at death. There's no hypocrisy there.

[scspkr99]

Do you need to purposely breed, cage, keep in (more often than not) terrible conditions animals purely so you can then kill them for food? Also thats the ones we get to eat, imagine the amount of chicken and stuff that never makes it to shops.. killed and thrown away for nothing. You can't be completely okay with that and pretend slitting a cows throat is way out of line and should be banned, I don't see how you can be that passionate about it.. how most meat is produced and how halal meat is produced really isn't that far apart on the moral spectrum in my eyes.. but people go on like eating meat is vegan and halal meat is like some weird fetish torture for days on end.

Again, I don't agree with Halal meat or putting any animal under unnecessary suffering but as a meat eater I'm not that much better and should be in no position to criticize. Like someone who spends their who life robbing people then calls for someones head because of an online scam. You can't give moral lectures on things when you've not got your own morals in check.

The conditions you describe involve animal suffering and I agree entirely that that's wrong. I do think there's hypocrisy in the argument but it's not the hypocrisy of eating meat and not wanting animals to suffer it's not wanting animals to suffer and eating meat that has involved animals suffering. This suffering is as relevant if it's due to a cage or the animals mistreatment as it is if it's the method used to slaughter the animal.

None of us are morally perfect, I don't even know whether moral perfection is definable let alone achievable so no one is entitled to make moral claims on your criteria.

[Muncey]

But ironically animals probably do suffer and the reason we eat meat, in general, is the detachment we have from the killing (and the upbringing/suffering that goes along).

Its also hypocritical of meat eaters because lets presume halal meat got banned on the basis of being immoral or whatever, by meat eaters. Vegens could literally copy and paste the exact same argument, make a few changes, and ban meat altogether.

So its not to say halal meat isn't wrong and people shouldn't be trying to put a stop to it or whatever, its just meat eaters shouldn't be at the forefront of that debate against them because to do so you pretty much have to go in morally blind about your own choices.

[scspkr99]

Anyone who cares about animals suffering is entitled to call into question conditions under which animals suffer. The argument should be won and lost on merit. What you risk is conflating animal suffering and meat eating, this is a stronger argument for the vegan than an attempt to divorce the question of whether an animal should suffer from the question of whether it's okay to eat meat.

[Muncey]

Anyone who cares enough about animal suffering wouldn't feel completely at ease with eating meat of any kind if they truly knew the way it was made.. but because we're detached from that world its easy to pretend OUR meat is grown in a farm run by an old couple and their grandkids come to feed the animals fresh grass and it dies peacefully before we eat it.

Its easy to be all morally correct about something if you can turn a blind eye to your own actions.

[scspkr99]

I stated above that the hypocrisy is in making claims about animals suffering while contributing to an industry in which animals suffer.

What you are claiming is that the only people who should campaign for better conditions of animals in the meat producing industry are those people who don't eat meat.

[garethom]

SNH agonises over which marginalised group to support to the very end: Muslims or Chickens?

Results still inconclusive.

[Genevieve]

I support the right of delicious chickens to be eaten by me.

I'd eat Muslims too tbh.

Tough call

[RKM]

i vote people stop reading the daily mail online

[ultraspatial]

SNH agonises over which marginalised group to support to the very end: Muslims or Chickens?

Results still inconclusive.

well halal is barbaric, but then again so is the zionist entity's occupation of palestine. tough call

[Muncey]

What you are claiming is that the only people who should campaign for better conditions of animals in the meat producing industry are those people who don't eat meat.

Pretty much, unless you wanna shit where you eat. Not better conditions, you can do that in a generalised way.. but if you wanna target a group.. yeah.. shit where you eat. It'll impact meat eaters all over if successful but that isn't the aim, its religious or cultural prejudice.. has fuck all to do with animal rights/suffering.

My first comment on this was "I wonder how many daily fail readers have complained about foie gras".. point being nobody moaning about this problem really gives a fuck about animal suffering, its just another successful anti-muslim campaign from DM. Must be laughing, probably rolling in the money. Enough to shoot a cow in the head, humanely, and cut a chickens throat. All in a days work.

[Muncey]

SNH agonises over which marginalised group to support to the very end: Muslims or Chickens?

Results still inconclusive.

Muslims vs Chickens
5 penis fingers vs 1 penis finger
DMZ vs Hessle
Punk vs Deep House
What will wolf h8 next?

No procrastination like SNH procrastination.

[scspkr99]

What you are claiming is that the only people who should campaign for better conditions of animals in the meat producing industry are those people who don't eat meat.

Pretty much, unless you wanna shit where you eat. Not better conditions, you can do that in a generalised way.. but if you wanna target a group.. yeah.. shit where you eat. It'll impact meat eaters all over if successful but that isn't the aim, its religious or cultural prejudice.. has fuck all to do with animal rights/suffering.

So animal farmers should either not eat meat or not campaign for better treatment of farmed animals. Meat eaters shouldn't care about how their meat is produced but people who don't eat meat should.

I made it clear in my first post that I wasn't specifically talking about Halal or Kosher but on general principles suggesting that people who consume meat shouldn't care about the treatment of the animals used in meat production is nonsense.

[nobody]

[ultraspatial]

you really don't see the problem with "shit i don't want this animal to suffer but i still want it dead & on my plate lol" ?

not saying you shouldn't care about it if you eat meat; what i am saying is that you really don't

and that not interfering in their interests argument is complete bullshit. yeah, animals have an interest in not suffering, just like us. they also have an interest in surviving and not ending up in someones stomach, just like us.
"A predispostion to surviving is not the same as an interest in not dying" - again, bullshit. they don't need to understand the concept of dying. as long as they're fighting to survive (like you know, running from predators - which includes hunters - or struggling on the killing floor etc) means they don't want to die, which means they have an interest in not dying for your consumption. it's like saying an animal doesn't have in interest in not suffering because it doesn't understand the concept of pain

[scspkr99]

No I don't it's not bullshit, it's not mine it belongs to one of the most consistent animal rights advocates of the last 30 years. It is clearly better for the animals that they don't suffer. It's much harder to defend an animals right to life if they would not have had a life absent farming.

Peter Singer writing in Practical Ethics

Competition in the marketplace forces meat producers to copy rivals who are prepared to cut costs by giving animals more miserable lives. In buying the meat, eggs or milk produced in these ways, we tolerate methods of meat production that confine sentient animals in cramped, unsuitable conditions for the entire duration of their lives. They are treated like machines that convert fodder into flesh, and any innovation that results in a higher ‘conversion ratio’ is liable to be adopted. As one authority on the subject has said, ‘cruelty is acknowledged only when profitability ceases’. To avoid speciesism, we must stop these practices. Our custom is all the support that factory farmers need.

If you can't see the difference between wanting to eat meat that is produced without the animal suffering and not caring whether an animal suffers then you can contend as muncey does that the only people who should care about the conditions of farmed animals is those that don't eat them. That also makes it hypocritical for animal farmers to campaign for better treatment of animals and places them under no obligation to improve their methods. Just because you are conflating eating meat or killing animals for food with having the animal suffer doesn't mean I have to. They aren't the same.

[scspkr99]

also if a human isn't interested in any future goals whatsoever is it alright to kill him/her too?

It's alright for them to

[ultraspatial]

i'm well familiar with singer bro. What i was trying to say is that it's bullshit to complain about the way an animal is treated if you still want to eat it. Obvs less suffering is good, but it doesn't matter if you still consume it. Go vegan or go home imo