Reasons why a UKIP vote is a good vote

[Dystinkt]

Physically, it's not as hard, no, but as a factory worker, you aren't making decisions that affect millions of people. Pay isn't just about how physically demanding a job is.

That's true, but in a factory you work regularly with incredibly powerful machines that could quite easily kill or maim you and whoever you're working with if you lose your concentration for so much as a split second, which is incredibly mentally challenging to do for 12 hours at a time. and thats without working 7 day weeks which occurred frequently for weeks at a time if the factory has a lot of orders to fulfill. I saw people seriously injure themselves at work, and it was absolutely horrific. Believe me mate, if I could be an MP or a factory worker on the same wage, I'd be an MP every single time.

[garethom]

It's all about what the world values. Physical demands, mental demands, responsibility, availability of qualified people, danger, etc. All these things come into it.

I don't wanna sound like I'm criticising you or your job here, but it'd be easier to find somebody who can operate the machines at your factory than it would be to find somebody who can handle the demands of being an MP.

[magma]

How hard is it to be an MP really though? is it harder than working 12 hour night shifts in a factory sweating your arse off doing the most menial lifting and carrying you can imagine?

This is a stupid argument whenever it's made. High pay isn't normally in return for how strenuous a job is, it's in return for the skills it takes to do the job, how difficult they are to obtain and how rare they are. It's pretty unusual for pay to be based on how sweaty you get. After your 12 hour night shift for which I'm guessing you didn't need to win a majority of your neighbours votes to start, you probably don't need to think about work again until your next on the clock... when you're not on the factory floor, they don't give a fuck what you're up to. When a politician is elected their entire life becomes the job - their family life is scrutinised and all their actions work or non-work are held up to the public and media to judge as they see fit. Yes, voting isn't much effort. Voting isn't the only thing politicians do.

You could make the same argument about chief execs of large companies or, hell, me... I get paid a fuck load more than an unqualified night shift worker and I'm fairly sure it's got something to do with spending the last 13 years of my life gaining skills that the people on the night shift don't have.

I've done that job mate, and I've done it for minimum wage as well. If a factory can find someone like me thats willing to do an utter shit job like that for shit money, then there sure as hell won't be an issue finding people to be MPs.

Yes, but will they be any good at it? We're not after 650 people to clock in, make the tea and stack shelves whilst having a good old banter... we're after 650 people, experts in their political fields (ok, we're not quite there yet ) or at least well-informed and passionate about their pet issues... but most importantly... who've been elected by their peers.

It's all well and good saying that anyone could be an MP, but you find me a constituency that wants to elect an unqualified factory worker to be their representative in Parliament over the graduate who's spent ten years running successful enterprises?

[test_recordings]

I think we should do away with the party system and just vote people to listen to people's views. They have to collect people's opinion and prove they acted on it or get thrown on out on voter recall.

Also, reform the House of Lords for proportional representation. 100 seats and 1% of the national vote to get a seat.

[scspkr99]

It's all well and good saying that anyone could be an MP, but you find me a constituency that wants to elect an unqualified factory worker to be their representative in Parliament over the graduate who's spent ten years running successful enterprises?

It depends on their political alignment which I'd prefer. We have pretty well educated politicians, there's not many from the last 30 years not been graduates certainly no cabinet ministers I'm aware of and they've all been largely fucking awful.

[magma]

It's all well and good saying that anyone could be an MP, but you find me a constituency that wants to elect an unqualified factory worker to be their representative in Parliament over the graduate who's spent ten years running successful enterprises?

It depends on their political alignment which I'd prefer. We have pretty well educated politicians, there's not many from the last 30 years not been graduates certainly no cabinet ministers I'm aware of and they've all been largely fucking awful.

Maybe graduate was the wrong word for me to use as I'm definitely not endorsing the current flock of PPE graduates... my point was really that people tend to want to elect people they see as "wise". That wisdom can come from formal education, but it can also come from a life lived... the route from shop-floor, to union office to political office should probably be a bit easier to navigate than it currently is. But still, the person navigating that route ends up far more "qualified" for office than the unqualified workers cheeky suggested.

[Dystinkt]

How hard is it to be an MP really though? is it harder than working 12 hour night shifts in a factory sweating your arse off doing the most menial lifting and carrying you can imagine?

This is a stupid argument whenever it's made. High pay isn't normally in return for how strenuous a job is, it's in return for the skills it takes to do the job, how difficult they are to obtain and how rare they are. It's pretty unusual for pay to be based on how sweaty you get. After your 12 hour night shift for which I'm guessing you didn't need to win a majority of your neighbours votes to start, you probably don't need to think about work again until your next on the clock... when you're not on the factory floor, they don't give a fuck what you're up to. When a politician is elected their entire life becomes the job - their family life is scrutinised and all their actions work or non-work are held up to the public and media to judge as they see fit. Yes, voting isn't much effort. Voting isn't the only thing politicians do.

You could make the same argument about chief execs of large companies or, hell, me... I get paid a fuck load more than an unqualified night shift worker and I'm fairly sure it's got something to do with spending the last 13 years of my life gaining skills that the people on the night shift don't have.

I've done that job mate, and I've done it for minimum wage as well. If a factory can find someone like me thats willing to do an utter shit job like that for shit money, then there sure as hell won't be an issue finding people to be MPs.

Yes, but will they be any good at it? We're not after 650 people to clock in, make the tea and stack shelves whilst having a good old banter... we're after 650 people, experts in their political fields (ok, we're not quite there yet ) or at least well-informed and passionate about their pet issues... but most importantly... who've been elected by their peers.

It's all well and good saying that anyone could be an MP, but you find me a constituency that wants to elect an unqualified factory worker to be their representative in Parliament over the graduate who's spent ten years running successful enterprises?

Personally, I'd much rather take an unqualified factory worker as my MP over some cosseted upper class pseudo intellectual who thinks that he understands my life and constantly talks down to me and patronises me like I'm some kind of imbecile. At least a factory worker would understand what the shit end of the world is, and the problems that the working class faces on a day to day basis. I've worked part time or full time since I was 15 on top of being in further education, with parents who havent had the money to help me get along. And your saying that some rich twat who spent a few years taking coke while pretending to work for daddys business can ever speak for people like me? You make the frankly insulting assumption that people who work in factories do so simply because they have no other skills. I worked with some of the most politically motivated and active people I've ever met working there, who'd put most politicians to shame given the chance. MPs should reflect the electorate, and for every successful businessman in parliament today, I'll show you ten cosseted public shool rich boys who've spent their careers as political lobbyists who wouldnt know what real life is like if it hit them in the face.


edit - sorry of this is getting a bit heated magma, I don't mean any personal offence, its a subject I'm quite passionate about, and I do enjoy a good old debate as well!

[murky21]

wage is determined by how exclusive the skill set is.

Biggest wages - Footballer. Skill set - very fucking exclusive - there's only one cristiano ronaldo in the entire world

Politician - very varied skill set required. Wages - should be representative

Doctor - tough job, smart people required, but a lot of people can qualify as doctors. Wages; high but not astronomical as a result.

Factory worker, dangerous or not. Skill set; any motherfucker can work in a factory. Wages; low as a result

[Genevieve]

Yeah, supply and demand does not only apply goods, but also to skillset.

[scspkr99]

Maybe graduate was the wrong word for me to use as I'm definitely not endorsing the current flock of PPE graduates... my point was really that people tend to want to elect people they see as "wise". That wisdom can come from formal education, but it can also come from a life lived... the route from shop-floor, to union office to political office should probably be a bit easier to navigate than it currently is. But still, the person navigating that route ends up far more "qualified" for office than the unqualified workers cheeky suggested.

I tend to agree but they are also contaminated during that qualification period. Anyone who get's selected to stand for one of the main parties though is likely to be qualified to a point or the parties aren't nominating them. I also don't think wisdom can come from formal education it may be prepared for by it.

I largely think politics is shit and ineffective, it's tough being honest as a politician it's a game for loads and given the constraints politicians are subject to limited in it's efficacy. I have no idea what the answer is or even whether there is one.

[murky21]

Come on Cheeky, you are trying to tell me you want a factory worker as an MP because they are 'real' and you don't like snooty upper classes? that's not gonna work mate, surely you know that

[magma]

edit - sorry of this is getting a bit heated magma, I don't mean any personal offence, its a subject I'm quite passionate about, and I do enjoy a good old debate as well!

I think you've missed my point amid your emotion, tbh. I'm not saying factory workers makes any less effective politicians, I'm saying that they'll need more than just that to get elected by their peers. You have to stand out in the crowd to be the crowd's leader. A factory worker who's been a union rep or shop steward for years is ripe to get elected. A factory worker who's only ever been a factory worker, probably not. The exact same applies to the PPE route... a grad fresh out of Oxford is no use to a constituent, an Oxford grad with 20 years of experience in business might well be.

I didn't even go to Uni myself... but I am able to recognise that someone needs qualification from somewhere before the public will trust them enough to elect them to a job in political office.

[Genevieve]

Factory workers are just as much stuck in their own bubble of reality as any other segment of society, including some prep school graduate who's got life handed to him on a silver platter. Every person is the product of their environment and the biases that are formed in it.

This is the job of an MP we're talking about, which includes a very varied set of knowledge. What does an average factory worker know about the complexities of foreign relations?

Obviously, a factory worker can be an authority on political issues, but being a factory worker alone does not qualify you.

[murky21]

no disrespect to factory workers btw, just talking in context of what is a very difficult job - being a good politician

[scspkr99]

lots of politicians know fuck all of the complexities of foreign relations, it's why they have civil servants who generally aren't replaced every 5 years

[Genevieve]

lots of politicians know fuck all of the complexities of foreign relations, it's why they have civil servants who generally aren't replaced every 5 years

I'm not arguing that most politicians aren't underqualified.

[Dystinkt]

Come on Cheeky, you are trying to tell me you want a factory worker as an MP because they are 'real' and you don't like snooty upper classes? that's not gonna work mate, surely you know that

No you're right murky, you can't run the country without being at least moderately snooty and rich!

edit - sorry of this is getting a bit heated magma, I don't mean any personal offence, its a subject I'm quite passionate about, and I do enjoy a good old debate as well!

I think you've missed my point amid your emotion, tbh. I'm not saying factory workers makes any less effective politicians, I'm saying that they'll need more than just that to get elected. A factory worker who's been a union rep or shop steward for years is ripe to get elected. A factory worker who's only ever been a factory worker, probably not. The exact same applies to the PPE route... a grad fresh out of Oxford is no use to a constituent, an Oxford grad with 20 years of experience in business might well be.

I didn't even go to Uni myself... but I am able to recognise that someone needs qualification from somewhere before the public will trust them enough to elect them to a job in political office.

Yeah I think I got my wires crossed a bit on all my in all my political angst , I agree with you on this part. I just kind of thought you were making it seem that people in unskilled jobs had no capabilities beyond that job and it got my back up a bit, my apologies. But I do think that it depends largely on the constituency too as to who would be a more appropriate choice. Which is why we have elections I guess

[murky21]

interesting and vaguely comforting post here on UKIP's success http://ramblingsofapr.com/2014/05/26/fa ... ukip-2014/

[magma]

Maybe graduate was the wrong word for me to use as I'm definitely not endorsing the current flock of PPE graduates... my point was really that people tend to want to elect people they see as "wise". That wisdom can come from formal education, but it can also come from a life lived... the route from shop-floor, to union office to political office should probably be a bit easier to navigate than it currently is. But still, the person navigating that route ends up far more "qualified" for office than the unqualified workers cheeky suggested.

I tend to agree but they are also contaminated during that qualification period. Anyone who get's selected to stand for one of the main parties though is likely to be qualified to a point or the parties aren't nominating them. I also don't think wisdom can come from formal education it may be prepared for by it.

I largely think politics is shit and ineffective, it's tough being honest as a politician it's a game for loads and given the constraints politicians are subject to limited in it's efficacy. I have no idea what the answer is or even whether there is one.

Democracy is always going to be imperfect. The mere concept of one person having an idea then trying to sell it to millions means that compromise, "contamination" and perceptions of broken promises are always going to creep in. The best we can do IMHO is make MPs properly accountable for their actions and votes. I think giving local constituents more control over removing unrepresentative MPs and determining how much they should be paid would immediately give a boost to how much effort MPs made to represent their electorate.

Power will always shape power though... that's human nature. Profit-makers will always try and bribe centres of power, centres of power will always seek to consolidate and perpetuate their own power... unless the Public are given the ability to bribe (through salary controls and the ability to kick MPs out outside of elections) they'll always come last in the pecking order.

[Dystinkt]

Factory workers are just as much stuck in their own bubble of reality as any other segment of society, including some prep school graduate who's got life handed to him on a silver platter. Every person is the product of their environment and the biases that are formed in it.

This is the job of an MP we're talking about, which includes a very varied set of knowledge. What does an average factory worker know about the complexities of foreign relations?

Obviously, a factory worker can be an authority on political issues, but being a factory worker alone does not qualify you.

I agree just being a factory worker doesn't qualify you. But 90 percent of MPs wont be dealing directly with those troublesome North Koreans besides voting on major decisions (i.e war), they'll be dealing with constituents concerns and trying to fight their constituency's corner in Parliament. which doesn't demand anywhere near as exclusive a skillset of say a Cabinet minister