Changes

[RKM]

i'd always assumed there were ads there...

[DiegoSapiens]

so everyone can login in the hideout with their Facebook account?

[dubway]

I do agree that OVER segmentation has been a big problem. I really encountered it in the production forum. It got so segmented that there was nothing left. There is one new thread a week over there in production, it is a joke.

But, I also don't think we need to go to a totally flat system either. That would be annoying. I've never really gone to general because there were too many random self motivated (spammy) people there. I've always really enjoyed production and the snh because there has been a steadier group of people, as well as just generally good people. I am concerned that diluting the forum regulars amongst the drive by spammers could be the final blow for dsf. If our interactions become too diluted, no regular, positive users will remain.

About harassing new people - I think dsf got that reputation during the brostep wave. I don't know if you ever read the forum, or just cash the checks, but this place was assaulted with the vilest, pimple flecked wastes of human beings. In all honesty, if good people didn't put those people in their place, this forum would have been destroyed. I know you want to see big numbers but those were the wrong numbers. And where we are now, as a kind of wasteland, I find that the forum regulars are slobbering on new people, just to get some new blood around here. Occasionally someone will turn up with some type of personality disorder and try and cause problems, and those people are harassed and ultimately sent packing. I think you should appreciate regulars who do fend off the trolls, as we're your immune system, keeping this place usable.

And let me take this opportunity to thank you, Dubway, for this forum (and to all the mods who make it possible, except you suckle). It has been absolutely central in my musical life, I've learned about so much new music, I basically learned how to produce from some of the now ascended production forum masters, I've gotten professional work out of the forum, and I've had just a great time over the past 7 years. And as sad as it may be, on some dark days, dsf is all I've had, or needed to bring me back up into the light. So thank you!

BUT

I think the underlying problem is not the forum layout, or forum segmentation, or the (nonexistent) harassment of new members, but simply the collapse of dubstep as a genre. Way fewer people are interested in dubstep, so way fewer people are coming here. IMO you should be actively marketing dsf as an electronic music forum. I'd look to form relationships with events, other forums, and musical publications. There is a lot that could be done to drive traffic here, good traffic, traffic that sticks. You have to remember that we, your users, are all that you really have to offer. We create almost all of the content for you, and therefore produce almost all of the value of dsf. I've seen dsf lose really good members, because there just isn't enough going on, and not a high enough level of discussion taking place.

I don't know Dubway, I think you and dsf are in a very difficult position. IMO, you're at a make it or break it position. You don't have superficial problems, forum layout problems. You've got deep fundamental problems. You need to drive new GOOD users here (pull them out of facebook) or dsf will collapse entirely. Yes flattening and centralizing will help concentrate and foster user interactions, but too much flattening, and it will dilute meaningful interactions and further alienate your remaining user base.

Just purely for my sake, I really hope you make the right choices now.

I agree with what you said.

My thinking is that we should first improve the forum and then try to drive good new users here - otherwise I am afraid that new users will not stick to DSF.

I think that suggested change to Discourse will not dilute interactions because it still contains the same structure as the current forum, namely Categories http://bbs.boingboing.net/categories just one click away from the index page.

I fully appreciate and understand the role of regulars - that’s why I am asking you here - to hear why are you here and what you want DSF to be.

Electronic music forum would be my choice as well, but some regulars and new users might see it as dilution of dubstep.

[Molzie]

I'll support any attempt to keep this site healthy

big up

[OGLemon]

i'd always assumed there were ads there...

There is one ad on the top bar and one ad on the side panel in between "view new posts" and "user menu".

[Harkat]

"dubstep" is good enough at this point IMO

It may not be a trendy name, but I think it works better than any other as a by-association name of the UK type of music, or music the UK club underground likes, like Footwork etc.

To illustrate, my local record shop is historically techno-oriented, run by an old techno DJ/producer and so on, and he just slaps anything on hyperdub, anything on Swamp or Sunklo or whatever in the "dubstep" crate.

IMO it's either dubstepforum, which makes sense given the history of the place, which is important, or some shit name like "bass music UK forum" or "future garage bass fwd forum" or something, and nobody likes any of those names. There's a reason why Blackdown etc are a bit reserved about their music being called "dubstep" but still come on here regularly. It's because it's really the same culture, just the beats are different now.

TBH I'm pretty sceptical. The point of this place is the people here and the relatively stable community, as nowaysj noted. I like logging on and chatting to regulars who all have a common frame of reference in terms of music etc. If the forum gets turned into some attempt at a sleek, ultra "welcoming" thing thats gunning to be the reddit of dance music or whatever, that would defeat the entire point.

[dubway]

so everyone can login in the hideout with their Facebook account?

it's not that anyone with facebook account will automatically see posts in hideout.
they would still need to go through registration process, same as now.
it would just be just a bit quicker to register if someone already owns a facebook, google or yahoo account.
but it is very easy to register right now as well, so I don't see any difference there.

[dubway]

"dubstep" is good enough at this point IMO

It may not be a trendy name, but I think it works better than any other as a by-association name of the UK type of music, or music the UK club underground likes, like Footwork etc.

To illustrate, my local record shop is historically techno-oriented, run by an old techno DJ/producer and so on, and he just slaps anything on hyperdub, anything on Swamp or Sunklo or whatever in the "dubstep" crate.

IMO it's either dubstepforum, which makes sense given the history of the place, which is important, or some shit name like "bass music UK forum" or "future garage bass fwd forum" or something, and nobody likes any of those names. There's a reason why Blackdown etc are a bit reserved about their music being called "dubstep" but still come on here regularly. It's because it's really the same culture, just the beats are different now.

TBH I'm pretty sceptical. The point of this place is the people here and the relatively stable community, as nowaysj noted. I like logging on and chatting to regulars who all have a common frame of reference in terms of music etc. If the forum gets turned into some attempt at a sleek, ultra "welcoming" thing thats gunning to be the reddit of dance music or whatever, that would defeat the entire point.

my thoughts exactly!

[nowaysj]

I think that suggested change to Discourse will not dilute interactions because it still contains the same structure as the current forum, namely Categories http://bbs.boingboing.net/categories just one click away from the index page.

If that is the case, I'm not too worried. I mean, don't we already have a Discourse like page here, that shows all of the active threads on dsf? I don't know, because I've never used it, but I think I've seen it. But is that not the same as Discourse - flattening out the forum structure and just showing active threads?

If in one click I can get back to my peeps, where my peeps like to be, I'm not too bothered.

This is how I use the forum: In the morning, I'll have an email for each thread that I've posted in that has received a new post. Throughout the day, as time allows, I just click through those emails and see what is going on. If I've used up those email/threads, I'll just drop into the snh index, or the production index to see if a new, interesting thread has been posted. That is pretty much it. On many days, I don't even get the opportunity to get to the index of a subforum, just hit those emails.

I fully appreciate and understand the role of regulars - that’s why I am asking you here - to hear why are you here and what you want DSF to be.

I'm here to expand my consciousness and for the lulz. I learn(ed) about new things here, from music, to politics, to social trends. When dsf was banging, it was pretty amazing the level of knowledge here that was freely exchanged. Honestly, I don't learn about a lot of new music anymore. I don't know if that is because of where music is right now, feel like we're kind of in an in between period, or a sort of lull, or just people aren't posting it, or I'm not digging it out, but I'm not finding a lot of new music on dsf right now.

But that is why quality users are so important, smart, helpful people who are out in the world, who bring things of value to be discussed here on dsf. That is why I'm here, but that is why my attention and willingness to participate has been diminishing, there just aren't a lot of interesting conversations happening, I'm not learning a lot of new things here, and those things that I bring back to the forum are not of interest to most of the new users.

Electronic music forum would be my choice as well, but some regulars and new users might see it as dilution of dubstep.

In all honesty, I don't hear ANY talking about dubstep. And I haven't for a couple of years. I mean, maybe 6 months ago we had a wobblerz thread here in the snh, so there is that. But, I really don't hear any conversation about dubstep at all. All of the new music I'm finding here is not dubstep. It is all electronic in one way or another, but let me say it one more time, no one I know is talking about dubstep. To pin dsf's future on a fading genre, imo, is dangerous. That is not to say that I'm not interested in dubstep, but it is just not nearly enough to sustain a conversation here.

Dsf/snh was more of a lifestyle board. Dubstep attracted roots people. Good people, community people, positive people, educated people, broadly perspected people, people investigating the world, experimenting, growing, helping, learning, traveling, all that positive shit. So it was just good to hang out and converse with those types of people, my types of people. During the brostep wave, dsf was flooded with negative people, hateful people, arrogant people, self serving people (young people - don't flame me). They've all since left, and dsf is left with those original people who managed to hang on, and a few new people that were marginal/redeemable brosteppers (young people ).

I just want a place online to learn about new shit, with funny, interesting people. That's it, simple as.

[Harkat]

big ups nowaysj you said it better than all

for the record this is the golden age of dsf right here

[nowaysj]

Yo, in terms of page layout though, can I make a suggestion: dsf's new layout, which you see a large majority of people don't use, and examples of Discourse seem to be similar, there is a flatness of information that I find difficult to intuitively navigate. This type of design is becoming ubiquitous with the death of tables and cells, but I like concrete distinctions between groups of information - for example, in the new layout or on Discourse, it is not immediately apparent where one post ends and the next begins, or what level we are in in a quote pyramid. I just find these new layouts to be visually ambiguous. I'd like to see more hierarchy in visual information.

I believe it is prosilver that I'm still using, each post has a different background color, so you know you're in a totally new field, whereas in the new layout, each post is white, and there is a one pixel line with a tiny drop shadow separating posts. Also, with quotes, in prosilver, there is a substantially different color background, it has a one pixel border and the quote is indented. That helps us distinguish the presence and source of the quote. In the new layout there is indentation, and a slight color field behind the quote, but the gradations of color are almost imperceptible, I have to turn my laptop screen down to see that there is even a difference in the color fields. It all just looks white. This all just creates visual ambiguity, and disease while reading dsf.

[dubway]

I think that suggested change to Discourse will not dilute interactions because it still contains the same structure as the current forum, namely Categories http://bbs.boingboing.net/categories just one click away from the index page.

If that is the case, I'm not too worried. I mean, don't we already have a Discourse like page here, that shows all of the active threads on dsf? I don't know, because I've never used it, but I think I've seen it. But is that not the same as Discourse - flattening out the forum structure and just showing active threads?

exactly! we already have that "Discourse like page" here, its called "View new posts" search.php?search_id=newposts

it is actually a very small change in structure: just putting "View new posts" as index page instead of Forums (or Categories), and Forums/Categories in the menu as optional view

but difference between Discourse and phpBB is much more than that... http://www.discourse.org/

[nowaysj]

Will we have signatures in Discourse? Most of the interesting music I find on dsf is actually in signatures.

As you see in Discourse, there is a light gray one pixel line separating posts. I guess it is the future.

[AxeD]

How many moderators does this forum have again?

[Harkat]

unban j_j like someone said

the celebrity prescence will probably draw a lot of fact mag journos to the site

[dubway]

Electronic music forum would be my choice as well, but some regulars and new users might see it as dilution of dubstep.

In all honesty, I don't hear ANY talking about dubstep. And I haven't for a couple of years. I mean, maybe 6 months ago we had a wobblerz thread here in the snh, so there is that. But, I really don't hear any conversation about dubstep at all. All of the new music I'm finding here is not dubstep. It is all electronic in one way or another, but let me say it one more time, no one I know is talking about dubstep. To pin dsf's future on a fading genre, imo, is dangerous. That is not to say that I'm not interested in dubstep, but it is just not nearly enough to sustain a conversation here.

yeah, that's absolutely true

Dsf/snh was more of a lifestyle board. Dubstep attracted roots people. Good people, community people, positive people, educated people, broadly perspected people, people investigating the world, experimenting, growing, helping, learning, traveling, all that positive shit. So it was just good to hang out and converse with those types of people, my types of people. During the brostep wave, dsf was flooded with negative people, hateful people, arrogant people, self serving people (young people - don't flame me). They've all since left, and dsf is left with those original people who managed to hang on, and a few new people that were marginal/redeemable brosteppers (young people ).

true

[dubway]

Yo, in terms of page layout though, can I make a suggestion: dsf's new layout, which you see a large majority of people don't use, and examples of Discourse seem to be similar, there is a flatness of information that I find difficult to intuitively navigate. This type of design is becoming ubiquitous with the death of tables and cells, but I like concrete distinctions between groups of information - for example, in the new layout or on Discourse, it is not immediately apparent where one post ends and the next begins, or what level we are in in a quote pyramid. I just find these new layouts to be visually ambiguous. I'd like to see more hierarchy in visual information.

I believe it is prosilver that I'm still using, each post has a different background color, so you know you're in a totally new field, whereas in the new layout, each post is white, and there is a one pixel line with a tiny drop shadow separating posts. Also, with quotes, in prosilver, there is a substantially different color background, it has a one pixel border and the quote is indented. That helps us distinguish the presence and source of the quote. In the new layout there is indentation, and a slight color field behind the quote, but the gradations of color are almost imperceptible, I have to turn my laptop screen down to see that there is even a difference in the color fields. It all just looks white. This all just creates visual ambiguity, and disease while reading dsf.

i understand what you say...
truth is that Discourse is flatter by design, which could be irritating to someone used to phpbb,
but i think it is much much easier to read and use than phpbb.

[nowaysj]

Do you have a sense of why a large majority of dsf users don't use the new layout?

[dubway]

Will we have signatures in Discourse? Most of the interesting music I find on dsf is actually in signatures.

As you see in Discourse, there is a light gray one pixel line separating posts. I guess it is the future.

by default, Discourse doesn't offer signatures, but there is a plugin for that.

[Muncey]

The new(er) layout is so bright.