In 4 the Kill in Retrospect

[nobody]

To think people at the time thought Cockney Thug was as "low" as the genre could sink.

[kay]

Can't say I've ever heard a Nero track and not thought "Meh".

[magma]

Can't say I've ever heard a Nero track and not thought "Meh".

The only one I can think of is the Blinded By The Lights remix. That genuinely knocked my head off when I heard it for the first time, but it's still only a remix of a great original... difficult to go too wrong.

Everything of "their own" they've released is dull as dishwater though.

[hubb]

I see what you're saying Magma and I'm sure there was an interesting period sometime before this happened.

To me dubstep has always been just poor half tempo dnb. Sometimes with an interesting new focus on modulations that were tempo specific, meaning it wasn't invented by dnb producers already and in that sence original/interesting/new.
But even when Reso or Pinch or whoever created something to their optimum, it has always hit inside already established territory (atleast to an extent) by optical, source direct, teebee and those guys mostly because the aesthetic and inspiration is the same. And they even adopted some of the dumb britain centric dj shit that has been a huge part of why dnb crawled down a hole.
I don't think you can argue that techstep is a subgenre of detroit techno despite the obvious inspiration and I don't know if that means anything.
But when the same negative thing that 'ruined' dnb also happens in dubstep, like pendulum or chase n status or even noisia making these attempts at stadium crossover diva bits and succesfully appeal to people outside of the 'tradition' or mindset- like skream and skrillex did, I think it's basis for saying that dubstep was only ever a subgenre and that would explain the creative mistakes and the inevitable demise. Because it wasn't removed from it.
But at the same time it helped liven up instrumental beat music a lot and in that way the whole post deal was very healthy imo.

Someone like Machine drum is really a sign that it has come full circle in that he's american but pointing at jungle and playing bass spots but comming out of berlin and somewhat appeal to trap producers at the same time.

[ultraspatial]

aesthetically it was always pretty far from jungle/dnb

[hubb]

No and thats ^ not a response

[nousd]

(bullshit)
imo dark garage thru breakstep to dubstep took us somewhere never gone before
whatever the BOC/metal/krautrock/postpunk claims to having done it before,
If you'd heard Skream's live gigs in 06,
like sitting on the surface of the sun
being rent by it's deepest rumbles
or Benga's joyful steps...NType, Pinch, DMZ dubplate sets
mate, you wouldn't be dismissing it as a subgenre.
For a brilliant while, dubstep transcended all previous efforts to dog-whistle humans into cosmic consciousness
(altho the drugs helped)
Nothing has before or since skipped me into disintegration while dipping me high-hat.
And fun...

Not that I'm particularly nostalgic
cos the inspiration is still there,
not dependent on popularity nor trend,
to forge weight and luminescence.

[Muncey]

Its natural for people to hate it because it was commercially successful. Most commercially successful electronic music (nowadays) is watered down, boring and easy for the standard Radio 1 listener to handle... it takes all the experimental side of it out and packages it in a way for normal people to 'get it'. Its not a bad tune, its far from Skreams best but Skreams best would never have charted.. its not sellable to Radio 1/Kiss ect listeners.

Its why German Whip charted, its nothing 'out there'.. its not very experimental, its a standard instrumental and has a catchy chorus people can pick up easy and sing along to. Its far from grimes best but its easy to see why it charted and things by the likes of Keysound/Boxed haven't.

Selling underground/experimental music to the mainstream will always involve "dumbing down".

As for female vocals in dubstep, the scene was quite healthy and growing so it was inevitable. As for remixing commercial tracks, again, it was inevitable.

[magma]

I see what you're saying Magma and I'm sure there was an interesting period sometime before this happened.

To me Brostep has always been just poor half tempo dnb.

Fixed it to suit my opinion.

Dubstep when I was first introduced to it (DMZ, Vex'd, Kode9 and Burial's self-titled were probably the first things I heard) had a VERY distinct sound and mood from the DnB of the time despite being heavily influenced by *jungle* sound and culture and despite certain producers (Vex'd, Coki etc) leaning towards a more DnB influenced take. To me, Dubstep was a tentacle of the Dub/Reggae Hydra just like Jungle... and just like Jungle producers eventually moved away from the soul-lifting, reggae-influenced Jungle productions into the Arms Race of DnB/Techstep producers one-upping each other for the filthiest drop until you have nothing but Jump Up "anthems" being released, Dubstep eventually turned into a dick-sizing contest between bedroom-based nerds who knew vastly more about electronic synthesis than they did about life on the dancefloor.

Pinch - Qaawali is NOT a half pace DnB tune. Anti War Dub is NOT a half pace DnB tune. They're entirely in the Dub tradition just with lessons learnt from all the music that came inbetween (from house to hiphop to garage), but not the DnB tradition. From Nero(ish) onwards, mainstream Dubstep becomes hard to distinguish half pace DnB... but it definitely didn't start there.

[ultraspatial]

No and thats ^ not a response

yeah srry for not wanting to write an essay about it

but dubstep aesthetically had more in common with garage, grime, breaks and techno than jungle/dnb - at least until the clownstep and neuro guys jumped on it
sure, a lot of guys were junglists but that doesn't make their music half tempo dnb

even guys like 2562/amus who had a more explicit jungle influence managed to turn it into a techno thing (kinda like t++ using breaks)

[nousd]

I can see that.
My impression is, because of isolation, idiosyncratic
but I can imagine coming to dubstep from different ways...

I'd been primed by krautrock, dub reggae, postpunk bass, techno & trance
and didn't really do jungle, rave or ukg.
I was intro'd to breakstep from triphop;
thought it interesting for it's samples and beats
so kept listening as it transformed thru a dubby backbeat,
shed it's grimier ego-aspects and weighted the sub...
voila! dubstep

[RKM]

i'm still waiting for someone to come out and say they got into dubstep through this song

i'd have expected at least 1

[kay]

Ffs I'd happily forgotten the tune even existed and now I've got the bloody chorus looping in my head!

[hubb]

But is it looping 4 bars or just the two

[hubb]

@sd5

I'm just glad that you feel that way. It's great with opinions across the spectrum.
._
There's always works that people uphold to a certain standard which then transcends genres. Like Squarepushers drum programming, is it too good to be dnb or was that about djs being spastics maybe?

[magma]

@sd5

I'm just glad that you feel that way. It's great with opinions across the spectrum.
._
There's always works that people uphold to a certain standard which then transcends genres. Like Squarepushers drum programming, is it too good to be dnb or was that about djs being spastics maybe?

Squarepusher would probably say that was IDM or Drill & Bass a la Aphex Twin and not DnB. It's definitely not DnB in my opinion anyway. They both came from the same place (Reggae -> Jungle -> FYOOTCHA), but they're trying to achieve totally different things.

I don't really like most of what's labelled "DnB" after '97 tbh and I fucking love me some Squarepusher.

[hubb]

I see what you're saying Magma and I'm sure there was an interesting period sometime before this happened.

To me Brostep has always been just poor half tempo dnb.

Fixed it to suit my opinion.

Dubstep when I was first introduced to it (DMZ, Vex'd, Kode9 and Burial's self-titled were probably the first things I heard) had a VERY distinct sound and mood from the DnB of the time despite being heavily influenced by *jungle* sound and culture and despite certain producers (Vex'd, Coki etc) leaning towards a more DnB influenced take. To me, Dubstep was a tentacle of the Dub/Reggae Hydra just like Jungle... and just like Jungle producers eventually moved away from the soul-lifting, reggae-influenced Jungle productions into the Arms Race of DnB/Techstep producers one-upping each other for the filthiest drop until you have nothing but Jump Up "anthems" being released, Dubstep eventually turned into a dick-sizing contest between bedroom-based nerds who knew vastly more about electronic synthesis than they did about life on the dancefloor.

Pinch - Qaawali is NOT a half pace DnB tune. Anti War Dub is NOT a half pace DnB tune. They're entirely in the Dub tradition just with lessons learnt from all the music that came inbetween (from house to hiphop to garage), but not the DnB tradition. From Nero(ish) onwards, mainstream Dubstep becomes hard to distinguish half pace DnB... but it definitely didn't start there.

I consider Burial, James Blake and maybe ones that were more hiphop like Hudmo etc as being part of that healthy post insert step period. Oh and I like you saying tentacle that's probably what I mean. Umbrella/whatever. But to me someone like Burial just couldn't make his music out a pile of the same samples (or references)- that without a doubt could become both a dubstep track and a dnb one.
Like:

Pinch - Qaawali is NOT a half pace DnB tune

How is it NOT a half paced kemal and rob data track?
If he said the name three times in a mirror photek would appear etc.

I think Pinch was trying to get dnbish tracks signed and then somehow managed to get money to set up his label (?) and that it all got very succesful quickly.

Arms race

Yes and that's a whole other discussion. But isn't it also kind of my argument - that it happened in dnb and then continued in dubstep. It's at the same time in the sence of progress, a cornerstone in what can be good about having a scene.

[RKM]

i thought pinch said he got fucking sick of dnb by the mid 2000s so was really hyped about this completely new style

[hubb]

@sd5

I'm just glad that you feel that way. It's great with opinions across the spectrum.
._
There's always works that people uphold to a certain standard which then transcends genres. Like Squarepushers drum programming, is it too good to be dnb or was that about djs being spastics maybe?

Squarepusher would probably say that was IDM or Drill & Bass a la Aphex Twin and not DnB. It's definitely not DnB in my opinion anyway. They both came from the same place (Reggae -> Jungle -> FYOOTCHA), but they're trying to achieve totally different things.

I don't really like most of what's labelled "DnB" after '97 tbh and I fucking love me some Squarepusher.

Yeah and that's funny. Rephlex made up the term drill and bass for a press release - because they were 'offended' that dnb lables and deejays wouldn't fuck with squarepusher on his 'terms'.
It's then ironic how aphex and squarepusher took on that arms race dnb credo with all the come to daddy references.
I would say that both aphex and square could be viewed as a progression from bukem and some of goldies stuff not only because it actually was, but like in a alternative universe that's where dnb should have progressed to. But djs tbf, were the ones playing and spreading it in other spots so if the idea of mixability and 4/4 were necessary to do that then fair because a lot of interesting stuff has come out of those strict 'rules' aswell.
A few like Bukem, Adam F and that lot were actually making mainstream money and not playing just clubs so it's fair that their 'sensibilities' (hmm lol?) weren't taken on by the next gen as the norm.

[hubb]

i thought pinch said he got fucking sick of dnb by the mid 2000s so was really hyped about this completely new style

completely new individual 'sucky thing' on a tentacle