Filling out the stereo field with drums...

[Dizzo]

Ive been trying to put together some good ways to really fill out the stereo field lately because i know thats a big part of a good mix. One thing that i like to do is import tracks that have been professionally released (ones that i really like and think took a ton of skill) into my DAW, which is Logic 9, and ill use the "multimeter" to see whats peaking where and ill watch the "goniometer" (never heard of it before but thats what its labeled - its part of the multimeter) to see how spread out some of the sounds are. Ive noticed that higher stuff, like white noise and pads, are what tend to be more spread out and lower frequency sounds arent very stereo at all and stay right in the middle. The only way that i know how to really spread anything out in logic is using the "stereo spread" plugin but im still getting used to it. I also know of the dimension expander within massive and having a delay less than 30ms (I know of the 30ms delay thing, but i dont know how to effectively use it)

So ive got some questions. First off, does anybody know of any other way to spread out sounds within logic pro 9 or any DAW for that matter - im sure itll transfer over.

Next i was wondering if there are any do's and dont's for spreading sounds - like ive heard you dont wanna do this with sub bass or kicks - are there any sound that are just in general really good at filling in the stereo field?

And i think my last question is kinda difficult. How much of your mix should be drums? like i said earlier, i like to analyze songs that are professionally released that i think have really good mixes and ill watch the goniometer and, from what i can tell, it looks like the higher parts of the drums like hi hats, snaps, claps and stuff like that tend to be more spread out. I can never really tell how spread out though because the goniometer also shows me all the other sounds of the song so visuals get drowned out.

Ive been working on just drums alone without anything else just trying to get a really good foundation before i even try to bring in anything else and i cant really tell how good it is. Ill listen to it one day and ill think it sounds good and the next day i think the drum mix wont sound good. Would any of you guys mind giving me tips on whats working and whats not working for my drums? especially since i really want to be able to set a good foundation for a track - once thats in place i think everything else will just kinda fall in line

Soundcloud

In a nutshell, ive got lots of stereo mixing questions. any tip helps. sorry if my wording was confusing at any point

[AxeD]

I personally don't like panning my drums that much. I find it doesn't sound good
on headphones. There's no rules here though.

You generally don't want to take advantage of stereo width with low frequency content
in dance music. Club PA's are largely in mono, so adapt to that when mixing a club track.

Utilizing 'Haas effect' in your mixing is fairly straightforward. Take a mono synth stab
for example. Make a copy of the channel and pan one left and the other right.
Now use a delay as an insert effect on one of the channels and set it to anything under
35ms (experiment with this variable). This will affect the width, but also the balance.
Trust your ears with this, because it's a psychoacoustic effect. It tricks the brain so to
speak.

There's also a way to extend the stereo field beyond the loudspeakers in your room.
This is commonly called 'phase trick' or 'super stereo'. The same two channels, panned
left and right. Feed some of the right channel to the left out of phase and some of
the left one to the right, also out of phase. How much depends entirely on the
situation so experiment with the level. If you mix in too much of the phase reversed signals
you can get a hole in the stereo image, which is an interesting effect on it's own.
It basically means you get more width with less level, if that makes sense

With these techniques, you might find that a stereo metering plugin does not show
much -or any- difference. This is because the real magic happens in the human ear.

[_Agu_]

I know that some big artists (or at least people with huge mixdowns) do a lot of m/s layering with their drums and synths. Take a mono crash for example, make it stereo with the haas effect, remove the whole mid channel, and layer different mono crash which fits the space.

[AxeD]

I didn't want to get into mid/side, as it's a bit more complicated, but that's
a very good point.
You can do nice m/s compression with FabFilter pro-q. I usually only reach for it when
doing band mixes, but it's useful for all kinds of effects.

[Dizzo]

Yeah i know not to pan anything with a lower frequency so im just kinda playing around with hats and stuff. Ill definitely have to look more into the haas effect. ive played with it before but not extensively and i didnt know that that was the technical term for it.

But as for this...

I know that some big artists (or at least people with huge mixdowns) do a lot of m/s layering with their drums and synths. Take a mono crash for example, make it stereo with the haas effect, remove the whole mid channel, and layer different mono crash which fits the space.

ive never even heard of this but it sounds like it could have some really cool affects. I brought it by one of my buddies and he said that hes heard of it before and theres a youtube video that kind of explains it. Ill have to check that out.

Another thing that im kind of curious about (and i know this really comes down to personal preference) but like how much is too much when it comes to the higher frequencies in drums. I would imagine that there would come a point where there will also be a lot of sounds in the higher ranges that would also be spread and would kinda collide with the white noise and hats and what not. If anybody ever listens to MitiS i think he has some awesome mixes where his supersaws are pretty spread out and its like his hi hats sit in the middle of these saws.

[pulsewaves4stopsines]

I think if you didn't have too many drums or synths with high frequencies you'd be fine for the most part. Keeping mono sounds mono to fill gaps in stereo elements seems on point to me. a little eq with wide bandwidths to shape up everything involved and I think you'd be fine. I've found reverb on high frequencies can cause some mixes to lose clarity because there would be extra action going on in the high freqs, but that's partially what damping is for imo. I don't think wide stereo sounds need much reverb anyways.

Definitely play with haas effect though, a nice alternative to reverb if you're just looking to give a little extra depth with drums.

[_Agu_]

But as for this...

I know that some big artists (or at least people with huge mixdowns) do a lot of m/s layering with their drums and synths. Take a mono crash for example, make it stereo with the haas effect, remove the whole mid channel, and layer different mono crash which fits the space.

ive never even heard of this but it sounds like it could have some really cool affects. I brought it by one of my buddies and he said that hes heard of it before and theres a youtube video that kind of explains it. Ill have to check that out.

Another thing I've heard about when trying to find information about how some artists get their tracks being loud as hell (around from -7db/RMS to -4db/RMS), but still keep the stereo width intact, is to do bus/mix/master compression/limiting separately for mid signal and side signal, haven't tried this myself yet.

[hubb]

what axed said

+ forget about the stereo spreader - it fucks up some sounds (like drums)

much better to manually pan a mono sound (one who you know is equal in both channels)

but generally i would say drums in mono are preferable and an easier way to set up a good mix..
¨
a good rule is keeping anything below 500 hz mono imo

[Dizzo]

Aight sweet thanks guys this is helping out a lot. Taking focus off of drums for a second - would the haas affect work on notes and pads that hold for a longer duration? like more background elements to songs? i know that this works well for stabs but im curious if would work for sounds that are held for a longer period of time

[hubb]

yeah definitely

imo if the ground level (in this case bass and drums) are kind of centre or just sit right or whatever...

you can imo imo imo do what you like with the rest of the sounds panwise

there's no end to the amount of panning or fx reverbing you can do imo

[ftwgmorm]

Put this on everything that dominates high frequencies. Hi hats, cymbals, claps etc. This works amazing.
Edit: use doubler 4 for better results.

[NinjaEdit]

As far as your levels go, you need more snare. Dubstep's all about a big kracken snare.

[Dizzo]

Put this on everything that dominates high frequencies. Hi hats, cymbals, claps etc. This works amazing.
Edit: use doubler 4 for better results.

Do you know if this is for mac too? Im running logic pro currently but that looks like it would be nice to have. If there is no mac model for that do you know of any good substitutions?

And true ^ dubstep definitely has got that crazy hard hittin snares - sometimes with a bit of gated reverb but there are lots of other genres all with their own style of snares. One genre that ive been liking a lot lately is tropical house and it sounds like that genre is predominantly snaps instead of snares. Lots of different styles but I gotta tip my hat to Au5 and Fractal for their snares though - those things hit hard

[_Agu_]

Lots of different styles but I gotta tip my hat to Au5 and Fractal for their snares though - those things hit hard

I call these "Monstercat snares", since so many artists over there have these. Au5's ones still really stick out from the bunch, there's a really loud "woody" transient on them. I prefer heavy snares, but a bit more natural sounding.

[hubb]

I wouldnt use that plug either tbh

stereo spreaders suck because they introduce phasing

[mt1]

Stereo spreading is important to move the sound around in the space so that sounds in similiar frequency ranges can coexist. But over using them as hubb pointed out will cause large parts of the sound to disappear. Ultimately any stereo spreader plugin is doing a delay as its core. You can attain a decent stereo effect in FL using the Fruity Delay 2 which is built-in. Just set your time very low, feedback volume to zero and offset to left or right. This is 75% of a "stereo spreader" and let's you control the "frosting" yourself.

[xtcvsmistycold]

a good rule is keeping anything below 500 hz mono imo

500 hz wow

op just mono upto 150/200 if that. just work as required there are no rules there are no shackles

be free

[ftwgmorm]

I wouldnt use that plug either tbh

stereo spreaders suck because they introduce phasing

Do you even lift?
Maybe when you are doing stereo delay, but not when you are using Waves Doubler. Top mixing engineers use it all over the world to make literally ANYTHING more stereo.
And it doesn't MULTIPLY your existing stereo content, it generates it.

Why am I arguing doe, it's your loss not mine.

[xtcvsmistycold]

magic plugin yeah?

you're arguing cos you disagree with advice someone gave m8 it's why the forums useful

[mt1]

Maybe when you are doing stereo delay, but not when you are using Waves Doubler. Top mixing engineers use it all over the world to make literally ANYTHING more stereo.
And it doesn't MULTIPLY your existing stereo content, it generates it.

Why am I arguing doe, it's your loss not mine.

So using a delay to produce stereo effects is fundamentally different than what Doubler does? This is from Waves' Doubler's product page:

When professional engineers need superior double-tracking effects, they turn to Doubler. Using delay and pitch modulation, Doubler delivers extraordinary richness and texture on vocals and polyphonic instruments as well as full mixes.

So adding some pitch modulation helps that much more than a plain old delay?