Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

[ehbes]

wow ehbs you're cool. next time write a bit slower so I don't need to delete 2/3rds of what I wrote to prevent repetition.

you think im cool

that's the thing with us westeners, somehow everything new, modern is good. there needs to be growth. personally, I don't think so. fuck growth.

the best kind of growth is the kind that happens in your pants

come and get sum of this stimulus package

[DrGatineau]

you didn't actually disagree with me in most of those, but here are the two that you did:

America's done some fucked up, oppressive shit over there. But Russia has done way more fucked up shit than America

Not even fucking close bud. I'm willing to bet that today along the United States violated 20 international laws just through its normal everyday military actions alone. And ya know what, America has said fuck you to international law, the powers that be have decided that we are above the world's jurisdiction.

Not sure if you misunderstood me or not, but I was talking about domestic human rights, not international law. I will repeat myself again, I agree with your view of America's behavior when it comes to international law. Will you accept this information or will you accidentally not read it?

Has America engaged in large-scale murder of its own people? Complete suppression of free speech and of the press? You think the press suppression issues America has right now are bad? Lol, such a double standard. I guess you can't even imagine what complete suppression of the press and political dissidents would look like.

I see you switched the countries. You really think America has engaged in more domestic human rights violations than Russia (inc its years as the Soviet Union) has? c'monnnnnnn man that's just absurd.

America sent its own citizens to concentration camps just for not being white. let that one sink in.

omg, it's sinking in now, because that isn't something that I already knew...

Again, massive double standard. America had the concentration camps that had much better conditions than soviet gulags or prisons that held political dissidents. This lasted for a few years, and affected just over 100,000 people. Compare this to the number of people that the Soviet Union outright murdered. Now, I know this number is disputed, but it's certainly orders of magnitude larger than 100,000 and the oppressive campaigns lasted for way more than 2-4 years.

I know you'll read this as me excusing American prison camps (although I'll never know why...). That isn't even close to what I'm saying. I think that was awful, one of the darkest parts of American history, and was largely fueled by racism. But you have to apply these things objectively, and saying that Japanese internment was worse than all of Soviet Russia's human rights violations is a bizarre fantasy.

eh, not too sure about this part. i think an isolated country can have almost an entirely socialist economy. especially if they don't rely much on foreign trade. maybe it wouldn't be a 'perfect' definition of socialism but certainly closer to that "perfect" socialist economy than a perfectly capitalistic one.

The shift from slavery to feudalism was not a country by country shift, nor was the shift to from feudalism to capitalism, what make you think now it'll be different. Its near impossible to achieve a socialist state when the wealthiest countries on the planet are actively trying to tear you down.

I actually completely agree with this and am sympathetic to that struggle. There certainly was a time when the Soviet Union tried to be a benevolent communist regime, but I think internal issues played a larger role in tearing that apart than anything the US did.

Sens. Lindsey Graham

this guy is such a tnuc

whenever I hear him talk I get the sense that he was sent to a pray the gay away camp for the vast majority of his summer vacations

something we definitely agree on!

[_ronzlo_]

Just a little insight for non-Americans:

This country, in particular its politics (and this is probably true in most all other nations, but it seems hyperinflated like so many other things here, viz. religion) relies heavily on bogeymen.

"Tha Russians" were mythologized into this role heavily for about 50 years, replacing "Tha Germans" that occupied the role before. We are currently attempting to swap out for "Tha Muslims" but there is still a large section of the population that was born and raised during the preceding bogeyman era - myself included. While the perceived threat changed over the years (portrayals of Soviet Russians went from ominous and nefarious to kind of parochial and clownish... Same pattern as with Germans) it remains that a whole sector of the US, particularly the old, the conservative, the ignorant - they rely on having cookiecutter villains to populate their cookiecutter worldview. And the Soviet Union didn't collapse so long ago that Russians are not easily Yanked back into this role, pun intended.

[DrGatineau]

I see you switched the countries. You really think America has engaged in more domestic human rights violations than Russia (inc its years as the Soviet Union) has? c'monnnnnnn man that's just absurd.

why would that be absurd?
imagine you learn about the russian gov spying on you. but, you know, they've been really thorough. they read your text messages. they read your emails. they track your every move through your phone's geodata. they see you walking through the streets by accessing security cameras. they track your online history. in some cases, they even hacked your computer. they did the same to your neighbours, your girlfriend, maybe even had a wank to her nudes. or to yours. they did the same to your president. would you be angry?
now, we all know where this is headed, so let's cut it short. all of it clearly constitues a violation of the human right to privacy, doesn't it? so for the US alone, that'd make about 320-325 million cases, am I right? now, the US still knows the death penalty. how many people die each year this way? (about 40 )
I've made it easy for myself, but if you really want to dig deeper, I'm sure you'll find TONS more. your human rights get violated on a daily basis (like mine, of course) in order to further the interests of the (american) military-industrial complex, in order to satisfy the needs of Big Corp. et al.

well, imagine being a US citizen and learning that your own government has been doing this to you the whole time? lol. it's not like i defend the spying program. neither of us know for sure but i think it's obvious that the domestic spying campaign is much larger than spying in europe. of all the places the US spies, Europe is probably at the bottom of the list. not to mention that the US is not the only country that does this, let's be realistic.

but all that aside, are you telling me that spying on people is worse than mass-murder and forced lifetimes of forced imprisonment with awful conditions of tens of millions of people? worse than destroying the concept of a free press? worse than destroying the concept of political speech?

if the US were to "put cuba under its influence" (ie make cuba an ally?), that wouldn't be a bad thing per se. i think cuba would probably become modernized and largely benefit. america would probably get something out of it, seeing as we tend not to meddle unless we get something out of it, but that's not in itself bad for cuba.

benefit from what?
-> what ehbes said

that's the thing with us westeners, somehow everything new, modern is good. there needs to be growth. personally, I don't think so. fuck growth.

i actually completley agree with this. i think the concentration on money and growth is toxic and is a meaningless pursuit, but that's a larger conversation for another day. also, maybe in haste i underestimated the state of cuba's economy, buuuuuuut i think you guys might be overestimating it a bit as well. that said, i think my point still stands. if cuba became an ally of the US, that would not in itself be a bad thing for Cuba.

[_ronzlo_]

Everyone I've ever heard from that has gone to Cuba has raved about how beautiful it was and how nice the people were. Including Mala.

[jrkhnds]

yo Jags, I wasn't trying to weigh up the different wrong-doings of either countries (even though my slight editing of your USA done X and Russia done Y paragraph basically did that; I'm sorry). all I'm saying is it shouldn't be hard to understand why anybody would hate the US. because quite frankly, it's an arguably shit country led by horrendous hypocrites, voted for by the american people. that's about it.

and if Cuba's economy is fucked, it's because the US wanted it to be fucked. and this big stick policy is just appalling. also, that one sentence perfectly encapsules my subjective image of The American:

if cuba became an ally of the US, that would not in itself be a bad thing for Cuba.

why think in foes and allies? think in equal, sovereign states with their own interests. maybe it's because I live in a neutral country, but that sort of talk really gets on my nerves.

[ehbes]

There is definitely a sentiment in the US that foreign policy should be conduction on a master/servant basis

[DrGatineau]

yo Jags, I wasn't trying to weigh up the different wrong-doings of either countries (even though my slight editing of your USA done X and Russia done Y paragraph basically did that; I'm sorry).

okay, i see that. i just thought the way this thread blew up was a bit ridiculous & it seemed like people were foaming at the mouth to call out americans they want to be "ignorant," so I want to reiterate this point. I was astonished as to how this all of a sudden turned into an "america vs russia smackdown" when it started with a simple question to faultier about if he thought Russia would really do this:

wonder how much this has to do with preventing russia to re-align and move military equipment right off US waters

all I'm saying is it shouldn't be hard to understand why anybody would hate the US. because quite frankly, it's an arguably shit country led by horrendous hypocrites, voted for by the american people. that's about it.

this is a fair point, but I still think you're missing the point of my original post. dude, everyone hates the US govt. I hate the US govt. 90% of americans hate the US govt. but with russia, it seems different (again, seems - idk, hence the question). it doesn't seem like it's because of the US govt's actions, it seems closer to a culture war to me. it seems deeper & irrational. they even hated the US before it was cool, gotta give em props for that! that's what i was tryna get at when i said:

is it just like a nationalistic/pride thing at this point? it just seems that no matter who's in charge, what kind of govt they have, russia just fuckin hates the US.

To me, it doesn't seems like Russia hates the US because of the spying or our wars or any other legit reason. it seems different from why Western Europe or the Middle East or the American people hate the US govt. it seems like Russia just intrinsically hates the US, because that hatred existed under different govts and throughout different eras & cultures. when Russia was "liberal", they hated the US; now Russia is pretty conservative, you'd think that would make them more sympathetic to the US, but no, they still hate the US. Under Stalin, they hated the US, and now under Putin, they still hate the US. People have pointed out that the American media has used Russia as a boogeyman - maybe Russia uses America as a boogeyman?

That's what i was trying to get at. Since i have very little access to what Russian people actually believe or what their culture is really like, that's why I was asking here. Sure, I can look up stats & facts on the internet or learn history in school, but that's very different from understanding the actual values & attitudes of the Russian people.

and if Cuba's economy is fucked, it's because the US wanted it to be fucked.

But i thought Cuba's economy was doing great? I mean which one is it lol

also, that one sentence perfectly encapsules my subjective image of The American:

if cuba became an ally of the US, that would not in itself be a bad thing for Cuba.

why think in foes and allies? think in equal, sovereign states with their own interests. maybe it's because I live in a neutral country, but that sort of talk really gets on my nerves.

what's wrong with allies? i think my concept of an ally is different from yours. you seem to think allies are only for the purpose of wars, probably due to WWII history and the Allied Powers & Axis Powers and Switzerland's neutrality and all that. I get that. But allies means a different thing to me. The US is allies with all sorts of countries that have mutual interests (it's not always US exploitation, let's be realistic) - all of NATO, Egypt, Pakistan, Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and many more - are all allies with the US. not for purposes of war. Ally & foe are not opposites imo. There are many other reasons to be allies besides forming wartime pacts.

[faultier]

large up the US education system/msm propaganda, truly amazing to see someone that indoctrinated

[ehbes]

Jags, Russians do not just intrinsically hate the Unites States, you do understand that right? The Russian philosophy for decades has been that they are not going to be bullied by the United States. You think Putin gives a fuck about Crimea? No, he doesn't. Its all a show of force that they won't back down to western pressure. Its the same reason why in the UN security council England, France and the US always vote one way and China and Russia always vote the other. They see themselves as protecting eastern interests, it has nothing to do with hatred towards the US.

On the topic of allies, countries align themselves with the US because they know if they don't they are gonna get backlisted. There is no mutual benefit between the US and fucking Thailand or New Zealand. Smaller countries will always align themselves with who they think the top dog is (see Italy in WW1 and WW2)

[ehbes]

if cuba became an ally of the US, that would not in itself be a bad thing for Cuba.

the minute you let American businesses into a leftist country, expect the US government to do everything in their power to topple that government.

[ehbes]

Has America engaged in large-scale murder of its own people? Complete suppression of free speech and of the press? You think the press suppression issues America has right now are bad? Lol, such a double standard. I guess you can't even imagine what complete suppression of the press and political dissidents would look like.

why does it matter whether the US does it to their own people or another countries people? If I shoot my brother in the foot is that worse than shooting a stranger in the foot? We're all humans and any kind of unwarranted violence and manipulation is awful, regardless if the victim is a US citizen or not.

But you have to apply these things objectively, and saying that Japanese internment was worse than all of Soviet Russia's human rights violations is a bizarre fantasy.

Even the idea that a government would think its ok to forcibly remove people without cause is abhorrent. Conditions and statistics don't matter when a government has shown a willingness to do that to people.

There certainly was a time when the Soviet Union tried to be a benevolent communist regime, but I think internal issues played a larger role in tearing that apart than anything the US did.

If you're struggling to build a sandcastle and I throw water on it, I'm far more at fault for its failure than you.

[DrGatineau]

aight, I do not agree with you, but I've made my points and i don't think there is a stance i could have conceivably taken that you would have agreed with, but that's cool. if you'd like to re-read my points they're there but i don't see beating this dead horse to be usefull so i'm gonna just go back to watching fox news, crushing budweiser, and h8ing commies cause that's clearly the type of person i am right?

big up the mistaking speculation/questioning for firmly held belief crew, likewise to the condescension massive

[ehbes]

Not saying that at all, I'm saying you need to think bigger picture

[hubb]

I just wrote a long reply, but I accidentally closed the page when clicking on another tab.
Basically, I said that socialism and capitalism cannot coexist, for socialism, by nature, requires that capitalism be uprooted and destroyed.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/w ... in-com.htm
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... /index.htm
Some works that explain the idea.[/quote]

Imo that is socialism - the cleaning up or uprooting bit - coupled with the idea of solidarity. Meaning that usually in politics, socialists are focused on just fixing the mistakes part. Which imo is more important as a political practise than the concepts of various economic systems that imo can co-exist during that state.
And it's why I'm personally against anarchist ideas, because I believe that is the logic counterpart, where you agree in what the problems are but instead refuse to do anything.

[hubb]

because that hatred existed under different govts and throughout different eras & cultures. when Russia was "liberal", they hated the US; now Russia is pretty conservative, you'd think that would make them more sympathetic to the US, but no, they still hate the US.

Jelzin who ruined russia all by himself after the cold war by handing over the demarcation tickets to oligarc m8s were also tight m8s with Clinton . .. which is the key to why someone from the kgb (super concervative institution) ie Putin could get back in an establish a more concervative old russia theme in all dealings and who didn't try to cull the neo nazies because they like how tough a manman he is.

An anti us sentiment is a direct consequence of that.

[jrkhnds]

I remember making fun of ol' Boris in fourth grade. what a don.

[hubb]

oh and btw

big up jags for wanting to try to understand though. you can't ask for more tbh.

[_ronzlo_]

I would also argue that while capitalism is theoretically an economic system and the continuum of socialism/communism/beyond (leftist forms of collectivism) are political systems, the functional distinction is blurry at best. America and her allies - including the UK - have often acted as though there was a political mandate for promoting global capitalist interests, and that goes back to the founding of the nation. The American revolution was by many accounts not entirely populist, with 2/5 being pro-independence, 2/5 being pro-crown (many of whom wound up in Canada), and 1/5 being apathetic knowing whoever won was going to continue levying taxes, conscripting, etc. Our founding fathers were almost without exception wealthy men of relative privilege, some of whom actively loathed 'the unwashed mob' (see Alexander Hamilton.)

There is an unspoken subtext to America that overtly pays lip service to ideas of everyone being equal, or potentially equal if you're going to argue... But capitalism doesn't work on a level playing field; it definitely tends to aggregate wealth in pockets that just naturally don't wind up evenly distributed. Even when you have forced redistribution it plays out the same over time.

This is also due to the fact that people are not all equal in their abilities, resources, and opportunities... But that's another discussion entirely.

[hubb]

which argues my point

because those leaving europe were republicans in function which lead to democrats forming and begin to argue that there's a need for cleaning up that mess/ leveling the playing field...

not that democracy is socialist in itself... but that if you understand the need for democracy you're a bit of tit if you then refuse socialism.

socialism is just cleaning up and solidarity is helping out