What makes a dubstep tune BIG?

[wallace]

There is a formula to create Big toon.

Boybands, Insync ect.
Proven formula.

[ozols man]

If Maryanne Hobbs is all over your knob, then your the next Burial, Hatcha, insert favorite Dustep Producer here. I have to get a date with that chickenhead.

haha ur a don. yeh mary anne is a bit of a bozo. ive sent her ENUFF tunes and to be fair i dont think im that bad so i dont see why she cant even simply respond even if she wont play anything of mine.

maybe she gets lots of people sending her NUFF tunes that don't think they're that bad?
its her show, up to her at the end of the day. shame she won't respond, but maybe she didn't like the first tune you sent, so ignores the rest or something? her job can't be all fun and games...

its harsh to disrespect her on a public forum though

lol why is it? i dont owe her ANYTHING. and of course her job is fun and games, how is it not? if anyone ever gets in touch with me about anything, ill always see to it that i get back in touch with them, no matter how time consuming it is. so why can she not do the same? sure i havent got a proper job to take all my time, but seeing as she doesnt cos her passion IS her job i dont see why she cannot do the same.

yeh she shone the light on dubstep, but if it wasnt her then it would of been someone else.

rant over

[cursedc]

Blah, here then.

A proper censoring of myself.

[ozols man]

If we knew the answers to such questions..
I don't believe MUSIC itself would be the powerful escape it can be.

Don't question why...
Skream, Benga & Rusko never questioned why.
They just bought what they had to the scene and made YOU ask why.

There was some documentary I saw about the Beatles, which went into loads of detail about the chord progressions and patters in their songs to explain their 'genius' or whatever, only to say 'of course John and Paul didn't realise that was what they were doing'. Where this is probably true, skream and benga aren't the beatles, and I think they've definately thought long and hard about production technique - the 'why' we're talking about - in order to make the next big tune. Plus it's a different deal with electronic music obviously. I'm not saying they don't stay true to whatever kind of music they want to create for themselves in a creative sense, but it's more than just that.

[btw, is anyone else getting directed to the forum front page when you try to post in a thread? fucking annoying as!]

u know wot i beg to differ on the 'think long and hard' comment. ull find alot of decent producers listen to various styles of music. then sitting down and making it is simply an organic process and the product comes from wot ur subconscious has accumulated. i dont think when making tunes, I FEEL. every now and then i reference the images in my head such as the crowd and dance floor or theme or mood to my music but ull find when producing, thinking is not really a big part of it

[boyd]

Sorry bru, gonna have to disagree.

We need to question why.
Cause Skream, Benga and Rusko sure as hell ain't talkin.

Experiment

Toon run though hi end sound processing

VS

Toon run through Farts and OJ.

Can a Big Big Toon be produced in both??

Cause anyone can come up with decent hooks...

that's a load of bollocks.
not anyone can come up with a decent hook, and i'm sure if you met benga or rusko etc and asked them nicely and respectfully, they'd answer any of your questions about production.

at the end of the day, ask most musicians, dubstep to heavy metal, how they wrote a tune and they will be like ''ummmm i just sat down and started hitting some notes in order. eventually, after many hours, they turned into that tune you like''

there is no secret formula for making a good tune, if you think there is you're a prik and you need to stop making tunes altogether.
a good tune is a good tune, no matter who made it, what they made it with, what techniques they used, what colour their skin is, where they are from etc etc

contrary to what you think, writing a good, memorable, infectious hook is not an easy task. turning that hook into a great tune is even harder.
i'm not a ''proper'' producer but i use my head, i realise you have to work if you want to make good tunes. reading a book about production or a benga interview won't suddenly make it all fall into place - its a gradual process.

also running your 'toon' through 'hi end processing' won't make it good. SHIT IN, SHIT OUT. SISO. remember that. if you send a shit tune to transition, it'll come back sounding like a BEEFY, SHIT TUNE.

sorry i could rip into your post all day, im in a bad mood.

I 100% agree with all of this. In my original post I didn't even mean the raw musical side of these tracks, you won't get far by just becoming incredible at using reason 4.0 without thinking about the actual music.

I meant more the process of turning an idea or a melody you've come up with into reality and how good the end product sounds. Of course people want to create tracks that sound as good as the ones that are the most popular. I do think this is where dubstep, and a lot of electronic music, differs from rock/metal etc; the actual 'sound' is more important. Which is why it can happen that musically shit poor tracks can become popular because they're just professionally produced. Writing songs for your band is different from creating electronic music because you don't come up with the mp3 end product yourself, you just turn on the amps and play in a studio with an engineer when it comes to recording. We're making the whole record ourselves if you know what i mean.

Saying that, I know if it's a banging tune it's a banging tune, regardless of production... Obviously to write a good song you have to be able to instinctively write good tunes and have a certain amount of musical talent, the production thing is more like learning an instrument, it takes time to become really good and make your songs sound as good as possible. The reason we aim for this is because the ones on the radio all sound like that.

I guess getting into production can make you more and more obsessed with the software etc trying to find the secret forumula that doesn't exist and you can forget what you're supposed to be doing in the first place - writing songs. At which point you're a prick apparently.

[planas]

If Maryanne Hobbs is all over your knob, then your the next Burial, Hatcha, insert favorite Dustep Producer here. I have to get a date with that chickenhead.

i'm not gonna get involved here, you can think what you like about how maryanne does her job, but calling her a chickenhead and implying that somehow the music she plays is associated with sexual favours is fucking immature playground bullshit.

[ozols man]

loool this thread has taken a turn to the darkside! seriously though i have heard hatcha is quite the player

[spencertron]

Sorry bru, gonna have to disagree.

We need to question why.
Cause Skream, Benga and Rusko sure as hell ain't talkin.

Experiment

Toon run though hi end sound processing

VS

Toon run through Farts and OJ.

Can a Big Big Toon be produced in both??

Cause anyone can come up with decent hooks...

that's a load of bollocks.
not anyone can come up with a decent hook, and i'm sure if you met benga or rusko etc and asked them nicely and respectfully, they'd answer any of your questions about production.

at the end of the day, ask most musicians, dubstep to heavy metal, how they wrote a tune and they will be like ''ummmm i just sat down and started hitting some notes in order. eventually, after many hours, they turned into that tune you like''

there is no secret formula for making a good tune, if you think there is you're a prik and you need to stop making tunes altogether.
a good tune is a good tune, no matter who made it, what they made it with, what techniques they used, what colour their skin is, where they are from etc etc

contrary to what you think, writing a good, memorable, infectious hook is not an easy task. turning that hook into a great tune is even harder.
i'm not a ''proper'' producer but i use my head, i realise you have to work if you want to make good tunes. reading a book about production or a benga interview won't suddenly make it all fall into place - its a gradual process.

also running your 'toon' through 'hi end processing' won't make it good. SHIT IN, SHIT OUT. SISO. remember that. if you send a shit tune to transition, it'll come back sounding like a BEEFY, SHIT TUNE.

sorry i could rip into your post all day, im in a bad mood.

I 100% agree with all of this. In my original post I didn't even mean the raw musical side of these tracks, you won't get far by just becoming incredible at using reason 4.0 without thinking about the actual music.

I meant more the process of turning an idea or a melody you've come up with into reality and how good the end product sounds. Of course people want to create tracks that sound as good as the ones that are the most popular. I do think this is where dubstep, and a lot of electronic music, differs from rock/metal etc; the actual 'sound' is more important. Which is why it can happen that musically shit poor tracks can become popular because they're just professionally produced. Writing songs for your band is different from creating electronic music because you don't come up with the mp3 end product yourself, you just turn on the amps and play in a studio with an engineer when it comes to recording. We're making the whole record ourselves if you know what i mean.

Saying that, I know if it's a banging tune it's a banging tune, regardless of production... Obviously to write a good song you have to be able to instinctively write good tunes and have a certain amount of musical talent, the production thing is more like learning an instrument, it takes time to become really good and make your songs sound as good as possible. The reason we aim for this is because the ones on the radio all sound like that.

I guess getting into production can make you more and more obsessed with the software etc trying to find the secret forumula that doesn't exist and you can forget what you're supposed to be doing in the first place - writing songs. At which point you're a prick apparently.

oh the rage...(in response to the rage) I'm a classically trained musician ( isay that in the least big headed way possible...as it sounds quite so)...it hasn't helped me one bit as far as making tunes i want to hear and eventually love, i get bored quite easily though. i also work with 4 other musicians (in other genre's lets say), collaboratively we're shit. what i mean is...randomization maths is as good a composition tool as you or me, as in, luck is on your side each time you think of composition's or jam/play etc.

as for what makes a tune big? i would say familiarity. no?

[cursedc]

Blah!

[COURT]

There are some things just better left unsaid. - shawshank

[legend4ry]

I thought it was obvious?

If masses of people feel it, its a big tune?

[slothrop]

I thought it was obvious?

If masses of people feel it, its a big tune?

Or if it's so long it has to be pressed on 13" vinyl.

[COURT]

sorted.

[forensix (mcr)]

How big a tune is is up to personal preference? That doesn't make much sense.

Being interesting in production, it's just something I do when listening to dubstep songs that have become popular - try and pick apart the different elements and techniques of the tune and learn from it, in terms of the instruments involved and effects on them, etc. Maybe it's just me then, but thanks for the lovely reply anyway

no I think loads of tunes are big that aren't popular. Difference. I think alot of the more popular "dat is big" tunes are dancefloor tunes.

What elements? sigh, right here goes

32 bar intro with some kind of opening filter leading up to the drop (maybe on some white noise with a little lfo) or some stupid film quote

then

64 bars of variation on an 8 bar loop probably with a half step beat "da big base" (sic) and fx laid over the top

breakdown more filter opening leading up to a drop

2nd drop slight variation on first drop then lead into outro

A lot of dancefloor orientated music follows a similar pattern - especially breaks dnb and sadly now dubstep

For all those people chatting shit about Mary Anne Hobbs please get over yourselves. I know for a fact that she does her best to listen to everything she gets sent (and she gets sent a lot) and if she likes it and it fits in to the ethos of her show she will play it. She couldn't possibly reply to everyone who sends her tunes or she wouldn't have enough time to do her job. In my opinion airplay on Rinse is more important for breaking new producers - of course you don't get $$ for it but if you're only interested in making $$ then why the fuck are you making dubstep? So please don't disrespect MAH as she has been key to how big the scene is today and chances are a lot of you lot would never have heard of dubstep without her.

[lukesnarl]

i think one thing very important for making a good track is making sure it has 'drama'

this manifests itself in several ways:

the track should have dark and light. chiaroscuro.
for example: It can't ALL be massively heavy bassline action throughout the whole track. Like in some of the Tes La Rok and Jazzsteppa tracks where they back n forth between the lighter reggae bits, and the crunchy heavy tech-monster-bass bits.

You have to make people wait for what they want.
If you have an awesome sound you know people will love (or you love - same thing hopefully) then don't put it in every bar. Less is more. Making people wait will make them like it better when it happens.

This also applies to 'drops' - they are all about making people wait for that big moment where the shit all kicks in. Make the drops dramatic. (And make sure your second drop is at least as good at the first!)

And sometimes the small changes can have quite a dramatic effect - EG in Surgery by Kromestar on Deep Medi 001 - when the bleeps come back in after the 2nd drop they kinda double up and change in pattern in an interesting way. I LOVE THAT BIT!!!! Its only a very small change but given that the bleeps in the first half of the track were so steady and meditative it has a large impact.

It think its important for a track to be dynamic - as in have changes regularly - not just be a loop of two bars of that awesome bass riff you just made. Make a counterpoint to it in a softer, goofier or funnier sound and chuck that in for a few bars and then go back.... keep people interested with dramatic dynamics....

these are things that, for me, make a track interesting. And want to listen to it again.
that and spooky/menacing atmos, and heavy grungey, filthy bass sounds that i mostly haven't heard before....

hope that helps answer the question.

[wagawaga]

yes it shall be done! i have been slack the past month making tunes, but the past week i've been back on it in fine style.
been compiling some of my samples for ya, got some bass/drums/fx n shit to send over. got nuff weird, genuine ketamine-induced screams, silly noises and random sentences too if that floats your boat?

i have a tune specifically for ketamin/written partly on ketamin, if u like to dabble and want to take a journey?

[boyd]

How big a tune is is up to personal preference? That doesn't make much sense.

Being interesting in production, it's just something I do when listening to dubstep songs that have become popular - try and pick apart the different elements and techniques of the tune and learn from it, in terms of the instruments involved and effects on them, etc. Maybe it's just me then, but thanks for the lovely reply anyway

no I think loads of tunes are big that aren't popular. Difference. I think alot of the more popular "dat is big" tunes are dancefloor tunes.

What elements? sigh, right here goes

32 bar intro with some kind of opening filter leading up to the drop (maybe on some white noise with a little lfo) or some stupid film quote

then

64 bars of variation on an 8 bar loop probably with a half step beat "da big base" (sic) and fx laid over the top

breakdown more filter opening leading up to a drop

2nd drop slight variation on first drop then lead into outro

A lot of dancefloor orientated music follows a similar pattern - especially breaks dnb and sadly now dubstep

For all those people chatting shit about Mary Anne Hobbs please get over yourselves. I know for a fact that she does her best to listen to everything she gets sent (and she gets sent a lot) and if she likes it and it fits in to the ethos of her show she will play it. She couldn't possibly reply to everyone who sends her tunes or she wouldn't have enough time to do her job. In my opinion airplay on Rinse is more important for breaking new producers - of course you don't get $$ for it but if you're only interested in making $$ then why the fuck are you making dubstep? So please don't disrespect MAH as she has been key to how big the scene is today and chances are a lot of you lot would never have heard of dubstep without her.

I see what you mean, we were just talking about 'big' in a different way.

[boyd]

i think one thing very important for making a good track is making sure it has 'drama'

this manifests itself in several ways:

the track should have dark and light. chiaroscuro.
for example: It can't ALL be massively heavy bassline action throughout the whole track. Like in some of the Tes La Rok and Jazzsteppa tracks where they back n forth between the lighter reggae bits, and the crunchy heavy tech-monster-bass bits.

You have to make people wait for what they want.
If you have an awesome sound you know people will love (or you love - same thing hopefully) then don't put it in every bar. Less is more. Making people wait will make them like it better when it happens.

This also applies to 'drops' - they are all about making people wait for that big moment where the shit all kicks in. Make the drops dramatic. (And make sure your second drop is at least as good at the first!)

And sometimes the small changes can have quite a dramatic effect - EG in Surgery by Kromestar on Deep Medi 001 - when the bleeps come back in after the 2nd drop they kinda double up and change in pattern in an interesting way. I LOVE THAT BIT!!!! Its only a very small change but given that the bleeps in the first half of the track were so steady and meditative it has a large impact.

It think its important for a track to be dynamic - as in have changes regularly - not just be a loop of two bars of that awesome bass riff you just made. Make a counterpoint to it in a softer, goofier or funnier sound and chuck that in for a few bars and then go back.... keep people interested with dramatic dynamics....

these are things that, for me, make a track interesting. And want to listen to it again.
that and spooky/menacing atmos, and heavy grungey, filthy bass sounds that i mostly haven't heard before....

hope that helps answer the question.

Cheers for the reply. I'd agree with a lot of that, I think a good tune should be more than just finding that one hook, however good it is, and repeating it a million times. I think it often sounds as though a lot of popular producers do this, but they'll all at least vary that one hook from section to section either melodically, rhythmically or with effects, or change direction completely. Variation is the key! I don't think it needs to be as dramatic as you describe though, if it's done subtly so most people wouldn't notice it can be just as effective without becoming boring.

[corpsey]

Request Line is just a great tune, I reckon the arpeggiated melody is probably what made it blow though. But without the rest of the tune around it it wouldn't have been any good. I think a memorable hook, melodic or otherwise, is key to getting people into something/remembering it after hearing it etc. Even a tune like say Ruffage has a hook in its drum pattern, that 'bm bm bm bm tsch' thing...

If you want to be cynical about it it seems like you can get away with making the most generic boring wobbler in the world and it going down well as long as its technically well produced (i.e. massively loud and overpowering). This is also the case in a lot of DNB- someone like Clipz for example might not have much going on in his tunes at all but he's obviously shit-hot at mastering/eqing everything so it sounds massive, added to which he has the memorable melodies/sounds that hook people in. That's why he's so big I reckon. Tunes which are more difficult to get to grips with don't naturally get people going on a dancefloor, sad to say.

[nospin]

If Maryanne Hobbs is all over your knob, then your the next Burial, Hatcha, insert favorite Dustep Producer here. I have to get a date with that chickenhead.

haha ur a don. yeh mary anne is a bit of a bozo. ive sent her ENUFF tunes and to be fair i dont think im that bad so i dont see why she cant even simply respond even if she wont play anything of mine.

lol, maybe she just thinks your tunes are shit?

maybe you came off a little spammy on the "nuff" tunes you sent her...

or maybe you appeared to be the type that might take a negative response and go be a little bitch about it on internet forums...