Elitism and represses/filesharing possibly?

[ufo over easy]

Right seckle, made a new topic for it.

Less Represses.
More Crate Digging.

I'd be pissed if I was one of the lucky dudes to have a copy of DMZ001,2,3.

And then they got repressed.


Goes with any tune or label not just DMZ.

I've worked hard collecting rare congo natty bits.
If it all got represed, Id probably cry.

I understand the side of story of lots of people desperately wanted them and it can only be healthy to do a repress.

But personally Id prefer to track a copy down and be on the lucky few to own one.

Heh, that still implies that you'd rather they were rare and hard to find - which is fair enough, but that seems like the attitude of a record collector. My view is that unless there's a good reason for them not to be repressed, then they should be (rarity not being a good reason). But that's just my opinion

I like having tunes in my bag that I know that not many people have.
Or going to see a DJ who has certain tunes.
Kinda like dubs or specials...in a way.

The more people have got a tune the better, after all aint that what music is all about, people listening and playing it? For fucks sake some people need to sort it out. Fuck a record collector and fuck an elitist. Music's made to be heard, seen?

there's never a right or wrong in threads like this. like boomnoise said, there's many factors to this and it's thin ice on every side of the argument. how many people remember the shitstorm a few years ago when metalheadz repress rumours started flying. it had every collector going nuts, and every new head rejoicing.
let's make one thing clear, collecting records is not elitist.

you think? personally i think that if you collect anything obsessively, compulsively, its going to be at the expense of someone else not having something. about kudos and possessing something others don't and there's something inherently selfish about that. the hoarding mentality can get pretty ugly.

not that i'm saying that elitist motives drive collecting compulsion entirely but they certainly form part of it.

Quite.

I hate the thought of that £77 DMZ002 being tucked away somewhere and being bought simply because of it's perceived value - instead of being played and enjoyed.

when i was 16 i was given about 400 lp's from my father collection of 60's,70's soul and jazz. if it wasn't for that gift, i'd probably be listening to britney spears or whatever other garbage was on mainstream radio. part of the problem with digital culture is that nothing is physical or tangible anymore. mp3's don't take up room in the closet, so of course people will be upset at the notion of spending money for vinyl.

Does that answer the question?

I think one of the only reasons, if not the only reason, that record collectors hate represses and the notion of selling mp3s is that they can't be elitist about pure data. It's democratisation of music. People do like having things other people don't - surely that's what collecting is all about? "What's the point in making all the effort and spending so much cash if you're just going to end up with the same collection as everyone else." What's what if not elitism? Dubplate culture is total elitism too. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing, it's just what it is.

for decades before mp3's, people have been handing down record collections in families. that tradition is about 80 years old.

and you think people won't hand down harddrives of mp3s? kids won't explore their parents computers? this is digressing.

Yeah... and how is that relevant? You're going to have to explain

Really think it's an interesting topic worth discussing. Locking off conversation for being "irrelevant" and ending it at that wouldn't be much fun at all.

[product]

well i know there was just a copy of 002 on ebay, and it went for $150. i dropped out of the race when it hit about $90. i'll be damned if i never get a copy of this record in my lifetime.

[marsyas]

too bad rooted had some a few months back.
got mines !!!


it really dont matter to me, the most i have payed for a piece was an un opened copy of 'centaur' (buck 65) for like 30 bones.

as long as u are a true collecter you will always cherish having original pressing over re-issues anyways.


the only people affected by re issues and whatnot are the people who pay insane amounts on ebay, just to say they got it.only to have all those songs u just payed a mint for put together on cd for 10 bucks.

[Steve AC23]

Why does it have to be about Elitism or some record collector bollocks...

Fuck me....

I just look at it...Im blessed with a rare sick tune.
Having a bag full of records everyone else has isn't going to make me different, is it.

Why does everyone assume the person who paid 77quid is gonna lock it away in cotton wool or summit, they could be rinsing like any other record....I know i would be.

I know it's only 2years old...
but why can't people look everywhere for records, Im sure you will find it somewhere....that's half the fun.

Everything can't be so simple and easy as Repress it and I'll get it off Redeye without getting off my arse

[mattyg]

Lord nows I've paid a pretty penny for some tunes...I've probably spent hundreds in collecting the entire No U Turn catalogue. I love represses though...for old jungle tunes, they're usually remastered and sound a lot better, as do reggae and old hip hop where the original presses were lite vinyl with low volumes. I also like having those rare gems in the bag that I know no one else at a party is gonna play, but I don't wish for anyone to not have or know about those tunes. I feel like as far as djs are concerned, it always pissed me off when people would cross out artist names on records, not tell what the whitelabel was when asked, and all the other stuff people do to limit the amount of knowledge being passed on. Unless you're the artist who made a song, it's not really anyone else's place to keep other people from accessing the music. People take away recognition from producers by trying to be the limited few who have or know about their music. I would love for as many people as possible to have my music, and if there was the demand for a repress, I would be flattered. The business end is risky, but small runs can't hurt too much. Also, I think there is too much emphasis in tune selection instead of skill. I've known some people that have had the wickedest collection of rare tunes, and couldn't dj worth a damn. I've seen plenty of djs get booked because of their track selection instead of skill. Unless you're into turntablism, mixing is mixing in my opinion. Some people do it good, and some do it bad...some tweak the eq a bit and cut back and forth between tracks to mix it up a bit to make it more interesting. But with there being a relatively small amount of technical variation available in just mixing, tune selection, mainly exclusive or rare tune selection becomes a big factor in a djs appeal, and that's why (in my opinion) I think people want to keep stuff to themselves.

[sdf3]

i can find shit for dmz 003. . .

but hey, for me. . . that's part of the fun.

so uh, anyone want to part with it?

[ramadanman]

in the past i was probably a bit elitist, being like "please don't repress this!"

but now i've just realised that it's about the music. i'm not too bothered any more about cover art, it's the tunes i'm interested in.

[djshiva]

a coupla points to address from other posts:

1. people who cover up the artist's name on labels aren't doing anything but hurting the artist. i have been djing for over 11 years, and in that time, i have watched the vinyl market suffer, not just because of the increasing availability of digital files, but from the "closed loop" system that we have created in the dj world. if the only people who buy the music are djs, the market for music stays so small that no one can do well. i don't want dubstep or techno or any of my music loves to show up on "top of the pops" (well, i guess that won't be happening anyway), but i DO want those making the music to be able to dedicate themselves to it without going on the dole.

2. i have said for years, give ten different djs the same ten tunes and send em off to the decks, and they will do ten different variations on those records. some will be good; some won't.

a good dj knows how to pick tunes that will rock a dance floor, but an EXCELLENT dj knows how to make something entirely new with those same records. i could care less if someone has dubs or first prints or test pressings or not. if they do nothing but play them back to back, they are nothing more than an overpaid jukebox to me. i want to hear selection AND skill...dubs be damned.

3. represses. i am all for 'em. i DO think all the crying and whinging about represses is a load of elitist bollocks. just because someone wasn't around the for first run, or couldn't find the record (hi...American here...some of these older records never made it over here AT ALL), or doesn't have a crap ton of cash to shellout for some overpriced ebay auction, doesn't mean they don't deserve to hear the music. besides, if a label can pick up its sales by rereleasing a classic, then i am all for the label doing what it needs to do to survive in an increasingly tough market.

not to mention the fact that those people putting up classics on ebay and making upwards of 150 USD don't seem to have the interests of the music at heart. they want your money and that's it. what good is that really doing for dubstep? and those who spend the money to "collect" those precious slabs of petroleum product? ok so you own something few people have...do you feel special now? "oh lookee i have this record and you don't. where's my nerd badge? i want a cookie." seriously, that is a complex built more out of wanting to hold onto something so that someone else can't have it, and not coming from a place of wanting to share the music. what's more important?

part of my love/hate relationship with vinyl is what i call the "acquisition syndrome". it's always newer better faster. it's based in a consumer culture that's ugly and money driven at its roots, and while i love to get new records and peel off that plastic and drop it on the table for the first time, i can't ever forget that my need for newness comes from a deep-rooted involvement in a consumer culture that's making mindless zombies of us all. and yeah, i know that sounds rather contradictory to my statements about labels making it in the music market, but hey...we are all walking contradictions, so...make of it what you will.

and thus ends my rant for the day...carry on...

[techmouse]

Unfortunately for all you collectors, pandora's box is well and truly open on this one. Digital downloads are gaining momentum, and there's no reason why everyone can't have a copy of a tune these days.

Moreover, just playing great tunes isn't going to be enough to guarantee success anymore, you need to be doing something pretty special to get noticed - and so it should be! Getting two records in time is a piece of piss anyway, do something interesting.

D&B fell into the "dubplate" trap for a very long time, where the whole scene was completely dominated by an elite handful of DJs carefully controlling access to upfront tunes, and insisting that everyone produce at the same BPM or else their tune wouldn't see the light of day.

[david_m]

What a great post we have up here! I think I agree sapphic_beats point by point.

I'd only add that if somebody wanna have some exclusive, rare tunes, then you should make your own music and stop making business from other one's beats. For me, the main point on music is to share and enjoy it with everyone you can, that's why I bought myself two turntables and started djing.

And yes, I've got DMZ002 and DMZ003, and I'd love them being repressed, I'm not gonna sell them cause I like them as much as the day I bought them, and I wouldn't matter if every single dj on earth was playing them, like sapphic_beats wisely said, "give ten different djs the same ten tunes and send em off to the decks, and they will do ten different variations on those records. some will be good; some won't". If you wanna be a good dj start improving your music knowledge and your skills, to buy a release before everyone else, just when it comes out, doesn't make you a good dj.

[tomb6000]

1. people who cover up the artist's name on labels aren't doing anything but hurting the artist. i have been djing for over 11 years, and in that time, i have watched the vinyl market suffer, not just because of the increasing availability of digital files, but from the "closed loop" system that we have created in the dj world. if the only people who buy the music are djs, the market for music stays so small that no one can do well. i don't want dubstep or techno or any of my music loves to show up on "top of the pops" (well, i guess that won't be happening anyway), but i DO want those making the music to be able to dedicate themselves to it without going on the dole.

Really good post - the whole closed loop thing you mentioned was why I got out of going to see people like Grooverider play eventually. All that ever seemed to happen was that they'd be massive anticipation for the new dub by Dillinja or Twisted Individual, it's drop, get rewound a few times and then everyone'd be back to waiting for the next dub. Although I'm sure nobody really wants to know specifics of my situation, it was at this point I started going to techno nights, almost specifically 'cause I'd only know about one tune in an evening, and that made the night so much better - just appreciating the skill of a DJ and getting into the sound. It's difficult to get out of a situation like that when it occurs I feel, and I do recognise why it exists, I do think it can damage a scene in the long run though in terms of DJ's coming in.

One of the issues I did wonder about in posts above is the notion of record collecting as elitism. I've always maintained a healthy collection, but have always maintained it's there to try and get other people into the sound. If I've played my mate a DMZ track and he doesn't like it, I'll play him a Skream number, or something by Burial.

My collection's something I'm proud of - I don't run around trying to get first pressings of everything, only good pressings so the quality's good, but it doesn't exist so I can lord what I've got over others. It's been collected so I can play stuff I like to friends to try and get them into the sound I like, and eventually to be a facist Dad sitting there telling my kids that it's not like it was in the old days.

I think a lot of collectors think in this way - I do disagree with the Record Collector attitude of "check out my serial number - this is worth fifty quid more than yours because it accidentally said Hitler was a lovely chap inside the sleeve" and all that, but theres' a difference between seeking out quality choons and geeting them asap (especially with dubstep where stuff's all selling out quickly - and as we've seen, not getting repressed) and seeking out serial numbers.

[mucsavage]

if there are going to be no represses (cause of a lost master or something, or cause its just not planned) then the original artist has stopped making most of the money out.

the profit now moves to the owners of the original copies and they may make more money out of it, as a whole, then the artists.

in this case would it not be time to consider it as public domain material and to rip it into high quality mp3s for free distribution?

[ufo over easy]

Wicked post Sapphic

One of the issues I did wonder about in posts above is the notion of record collecting as elitism. I've always maintained a healthy collection, but have always maintained it's there to try and get other people into the sound. If I've played my mate a DMZ track and he doesn't like it, I'll play him a Skream number, or something by Burial.

My collection's something I'm proud of - I don't run around trying to get first pressings of everything, only good pressings so the quality's good, but it doesn't exist so I can lord what I've got over others. It's been collected so I can play stuff I like to friends to try and get them into the sound I like, and eventually to be a facist Dad sitting there telling my kids that it's not like it was in the old days. .

I definitely think there is an element of elitism in record collecting, in the same way that there is for anyone who collects anything, and more or less anyone who does anything in this society. If you own something, it'll be at the expense of owning something else. If you own one particular record, it's because you like it more than another. I don't think that kind of elitism is negative at all. It's driven by passion for the music, and without that drive music scene's wouldn't operate half as well.

However, a lot of the time status is involved. People want a huge collection full of rare stuff just so they can hide them away and brag about them. These kind of collectors do nothing for the music (other than line the pockets of eBay mercenaries), and they're generally the people who are against represses.

[metalboxproducts]

1. people who cover up the artist's name on labels aren't doing anything but hurting the artist. i have been djing for over 11 years, and in that time, i have watched the vinyl market suffer, not just because of the increasing availability of digital files, but from the "closed loop" system that we have created in the dj world. if the only people who buy the music are djs, the market for music stays so small that no one can do well. i don't want dubstep or techno or any of my music loves to show up on "top of the pops" (well, i guess that won't be happening anyway), but i DO want those making the music to be able to dedicate themselves to it without going on the dole.



I'm on the dole.

[elemental]

1. people who cover up the artist's name on labels aren't doing anything but hurting the artist. i have been djing for over 11 years, and in that time, i have watched the vinyl market suffer, not just because of the increasing availability of digital files, but from the "closed loop" system that we have created in the dj world. if the only people who buy the music are djs, the market for music stays so small that no one can do well. i don't want dubstep or techno or any of my music loves to show up on "top of the pops" (well, i guess that won't be happening anyway), but i DO want those making the music to be able to dedicate themselves to it without going on the dole.



I'm on the dole.

To be honest I dont think I know of anyone atm who is able to pay their own rent / mortgage purely through underground music. Think those days are long gone. I'd like to be proven wrong tho.

[r33lc4sh]

To be honest I dont think I know of anyone atm who is able to pay their own rent / mortgage purely through underground music. Think those days are long gone. I'd like to be proven wrong tho.

there are such people (minority or maybe even exceptions - that's true) but they make their money not on selling records but playing out as DJs or with their laptops
and that is exactly what mshadetek wrote somewhere on this forum about possible adventages of filesharing (more recognition = more bookings)

[mshadetek]

I agree, the records should be available to as many people as is possible, that's the point of pressing and distributing them.

As an artist my current 12" just sold out it's first pressing and there's a problem getting a repress done, so I'll probably go back and re-cut the master, since I want more people to be able to buy it, play it, listen to it.

I am strongly against the culture of collecting as I think it usually puts objects before ideas and most of these obsessive collectors buying up the last copies of things are not real DJs who will play it out to people. It's WAY worse in my opinion that these great records are going on ebay and turned into artifacts that are then put in plastic bags and never played, especially when there's only a few left. Ideally you should be able to play a record till it wears out and then get another copy, rinse and repeat.

[seckle]

i collect. i sell on ebay sometimes, but not for the money and very rarely. i used to dj all the time and now just on occasion. i'm not against represses, but i am against repressing whole catalogues. i support the scene by buying it's products week in and week out. if that get's your panties in a twist then i could truely give a shit. the filesharing thing is rinsed out on this forum. people are going to feel strongly on either side, so for me it's like watching paint dry.
on that note, i'm always going to have issue with people claiming to love music on net forums but end up not supporting it financially.

[djgyn]

if there are going to be no represses (cause of a lost master or something, or cause its just not planned) then the original artist has stopped making most of the money out.

Nail meets head. This is exactly the problem.

Why the hell do vinyl-dominated music scenes seem so vitriolic against the simple notion of supply and demand? If Sony BMG Island Def Jam Universal puts out a record and it sells out, with loads of people itching for more, it'll repress the record. It's just that simple. In this scene, that translates to more revenue for the record labels pushing the sound, more revenue for the artists making the sound, and good relations between the labels/distributors and record shops wanting to sell great records to the end consumer.

[pangaea]

if there are going to be no represses (cause of a lost master or something, or cause its just not planned) then the original artist has stopped making most of the money out.

Nail meets head. This is exactly the problem.

Why the hell do vinyl-dominated music scenes seem so vitriolic against the simple notion of supply and demand? If Sony BMG Island Def Jam Universal puts out a record and it sells out, with loads of people itching for more, it'll repress the record. It's just that simple. In this scene, that translates to more revenue for the record labels pushing the sound, more revenue for the artists making the sound, and good relations between the labels/distributors and record shops wanting to sell great records to the end consumer.