Song Length Help...

xthewiddler · Post by **xthewiddler** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:47 pm

I have a problem and i'm not afraid to admit it

haha my songs are all too short!

any tips?

psyolopher · Post by **psyolopher** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:50 pm

Hmmm just makes me want to listen to dem over and over again!

wooda916 · Post by **wooda916** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:54 pm

xTheWiddler wrote:I have a problem and i'm not afraid to admit it

haha my songs are all too short!

any tips?

correct Widdler!!!

i was gonna bring that to your attention! Poltergeist is one of, if not my fav tune but is frustratingly short! lol have to reload it everytime i play it cause i just cant mix that quick haha!

not just that tune though some of your others are fuckin sick too but only about 2 mins and i have to change tunes like superman to be able to get the next one in on time.

my suggestion, add another drop to your tunes maybe...

simbi · Post by **simbi** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:55 pm

I personally think a lot of dubstep tunes are too long. If your song is just repeating itself for the sake of length, and nothing of interest is added I tend to lose focus and become bored of it.

simbi · Post by **simbi** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:05 pm

I just copied this from tweakheadz.com

Just a basic songwriting forumla, yet anything goes.

IABABCABC
(I=Intro, A="A section or verse", B="B section or chorus", C="C section" or break, E=Ending)

Intro (4-8 bars)
A (8-16 bars) Verse
B (8-16 Bars) Chorus
A (8-16 Bars) Verse 2
B (8-16 Bars) Chorus 2
C (break) 2-16 bars
A (8-16 Bars) Verse 3
B (8-16 Bars) Chorus 3
E (ending)

Note there are many variations of this, such as

IABABCACE

IABACBABE

IABCBCABE

Hope it helps

psyolopher · Post by **psyolopher** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:07 pm

Well widdler, the length on your introes are perfect!

wooda916 · Post by **wooda916** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:08 pm

Psyolopher wrote:Well widdler, the length on your introes are perfect!

agreed

relik · Post by **relik** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:13 pm

longer intros/breaks. drag the outro out into a harder third drop. don't be afraid to copy your drum patterns and just add edits to them. experiment with different track structures. make two songs in one. lots of things you can do, but i think it's more of a mood thing. sometimes a track is just done and a lot of the time shorter tracks are better because they don't get monotonous. i don't even think about track times or putting something into a particular structure when i write. whatever happens happens but i think what i do is usually dependent on the feeling the sounds i'm using give me at the time i'm writing. most of my tracks usually end up being between 4-6 minutes and i think anything over 5:30 is getting long.

zion cluster · Post by **zion cluster** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:22 pm

I like short songs, they definitely have that reload factor. Look at the Pixies, great band, no song over 2 minutes 30. I remember an interview with Mike Patton where he was said that a song should start, say what it has to say, and then stop. If your tunes are that length, then they are that length. If a DJ really needs more time to mix them, couldn't they just drop them into an audio editor and stretch them out a bit? (I'm a bit clueless cos I don't DJ).
Plus, who did the visualizations for Poltergeist? They're great, especially that green smoke oscilloscope thing, wicked!

xthewiddler · Post by **xthewiddler** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:30 am

simbi wrote:I personally think a lot of dubstep tunes are too long. If your song is just repeating itself for the sake of length, and nothing of interest is added I tend to lose focus and become bored of it.

this is my point exactly, so what are good ways to not repeate, without having the song go off on weird tangents?

the reason i am asking is that i'm getting some tracks put to vinyl most likely, and they said my tracks were too short to press

is this a technical issue? or just a full record issue

futures_untold · Post by **futures_untold** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:35 am

you could repeat a theme or motive you have introduced and built up using a new instrument or synth patch to play the phrase...

You could also change the filter settings and osc type to bring about a new change for the extended section of a song.

I think 5 minutes is about right for a dubstep or d'n'b track, so long as the tune is not lazily repeating itself!

---------------------------

With regards to pressing, the price remains the same to press two short songs as it does to press a full EP.. May as well press longer tracks and more of them!

One benefit of pressing fewer tracks per side, is that you can get wider grooves and thus less needle slipage... Maybe the fidility is imroved too?

Can anybody enlighten us?

abZ · Post by **abZ** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:45 am

I keep 'em between 4 and 5 minutes. Thats a good length for a dance tune imo.

kwality · Post by **kwality** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:38 am

The best way to get the most out of your tunes is to have something as 'backup' within it, or a 'highest point' that you build up to. The last third of a tune could do simple things like have more changeups, a few counter rhythms and some extra pads/sounds/strings/textures.

Getting the right length is hard though, I mean a lot of dj's don't really let things play for long, so maybe people miss out on the fireworks of your track - I guess just do what feels right, but for a wee bit of extra help, layout 4/8/16 bars of coloured blocks in your sequencer before you start working, that way you have an idea of the bars/time you used and got left. Don't stick to it rigidly, but knowing where you've been and where you'd like to go can really help.

module · Post by **module** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:48 am

i have the same issue as you widdler. for me its not such a problem though, cause at this point i produce for fun.

for you widdler: just end it when you feel it should end. if you do that, it will always be the right length.

xthewiddler · Post by **xthewiddler** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:23 am

thanks again everyone, all of these tips are going to be very helpful!

theonelikepaul · Post by **theonelikepaul** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:36 am

I tend to do 256 bars, which is 8 groups of 32 bar bits.

i.e. a 32 bar intro, going into a 32 bar drop.

Works out at around 7 mins something at 140 bpm. This is about the max you can fit on a 12" at 45 rpm.

This is a bit long though, so I also tend to conclude the track and drop off the last two 32 bar sections, or half a few of the sections, so theres like a 16 bar intro, 16 bar drop, etc.

This tune I made right here (for a laugh by the way, its not serious) is made in that format, 8 groups of 32 bar sections = 256 bars.
http://www.divshare.com/download/2872309-b4b

serox · Post by **serox** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:27 am

problem with dubstep is the songs are too long! they get just make about 2mins worth of music and then repete it all with a few small changes:/

I am well into my oldskool Techno that changes loads so dont listen to me

Jak The lad · Post by **Jak The lad** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:50 am

Like everyone has said, theres no point in making a 5 minute tune if 2 1/2 mins are just a loop of the drop.

A short intro is good for effect, but most dj's I know like a long enough intro on a tune to mix in.

Tbh, if you feel it works, it works. Having a formula and structure will only make your music sound ridged. Although some sort of structure will help you make a track, having the edge or a sudden change can make a tune. But on the other hand, it can piss the dj off too lol.

simbi · Post by **simbi** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:42 pm

Widdler, check out this link.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/recipes.html

This may help some people understanding basic song structure, and why most professional producers, even dubstep producers, use forumals.

I do agree with JTL that following forumlas might make music ridged and academic, but by first understanding musical principals you may be able to then understand how to write great, complete songs, but not be confined to strict formulas either. I hope that makes sense.

Also, take some dubstep songs from artists that you love and listen and write down how many times the drum pattern changes, the bass changes, how many sections ar there, etc... It can give you an idea of what some of the big time players are doing, and what you may not be doing.

grime suspect · Post by **grime suspect** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:29 pm

big tunes but wish they were longer, u got u could loop the whole thing again including the intro and make a sick second drop, dont think u can get bored of ur tunes plus they would be mixed before u hear to much anyway. i agree 4 - 5 mins is a good length

u murkin it big up

Song Length Help...

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