Dubstep And Criticism

[boomnoise]

OK - i've just rolled in from the pub after having a number of pints of strong ale - and i feel obliged to weigh in on this.

i'm obviously a frequent poster on this forum.. < check the numbers. ok, this might simply mean i have too much time on my hands but more realistically it's because i really care about this music and consequently, this forum.

my main point is that i don't want this forum to become a backslappping jolly. we all love dubstep - this is why we bothered to register here and contribute whatever we do, whether that be the inconsequential, the humorous, the analytical, the profound the ironic or visceral - i don't really care..

BUT.. the point of this thread is that if we are to engage with this music it shouldn't revolve around some dogmatic notion that dubstep = great. it doesn’t'. Recently i've heard a lot of proper chaf 'dubstep'. This trend is only going to grow as more and more producers come to the sound. Dubstep, unlike perhaps a few years ago when every release was essential, doesn’t equate to genius.

More over, what i think should be one of the silent objectives of this forum is to critically engage with the music. The notion of 'respect' just doesn't work with me when you think something is waste, this should be expressed. Not suppressed for some notion of the greater good.

A key problem is, quiet clearly, the presence of artists and people who are very quite close to the scene being on this forum. No one should be personally offended, but say skream makes a track which you, as an individual don't like, you should be free to comment as you wish without a bunch of hardcore dubstep fans weighing in heavy on the criticism. No tune can be so objectively brilliant that criticism can be reduced to idiocy.

I advocate a culture of discourse, discussion; something more than which has been going on here to date. You can't simply extol the virtues of something because it belongs to a bigger idea which you agree with. Where would we be without hordes of people rejecting the ideas of postwar 'new labour''? We love dubstep as an genre; an idea, but it is never going to be the best thing in the world as matter of fact.

Some of you questioned the value of negativity - to you i will say that it is probably worth more than being silent. You like something - you rave about it - you dislike something you 'STFU' - for me that doesn't make sense.

Sure this thread is 'long' but surely even long tings need to be debated. Probably especially so.

All i want for this forum is freedom of expression. I do worry about the culture of backslapping which exists. Dubstep as it grows and is produced by more and more people can be bad; it can be terrible. And we need not live (in cyberspace) with a culture of fear for expressing what we feel.

[bedward]

1. re: accusation of conspicuous hyping/backslapping etc.

in the case of this forum, it's not like a dubstep topic in a more general purpose forum. is it?
the common ground for users of this forum is appreciation of dubstep. you don't expect to find an even blend of lovers/haters here.
so it's natural for ppl mainly to celebrate various dubstep events/mixes/tunes/producers as standard.
ppl like to smile and say "yeah, innit." it's one of lifes's little pleasures.
more generally: i'm pretty sure most dubstep fans have heard a tune or two that they just dont need, and in many cases it will not have been kept secret.
but it's not really the focus of any music scene is it? slagging off the duds? maybe a rather more bloated scene requires that. it could happen.

2. "criticism" of dubstep of the kind demonstrated on that DOA thread.

pff.
a bit redundant.
all that rubbish about faster is better.
so is gabber the best? speedcore, whatever. that wins the music race. settled.

one of the things that has gradually eroded my enjoyment (but not entirely) of d&b is the musical blinkers thing.
chauvinism, i spose.
obv dubstep didn't evolve out of d&b (primarily) as is suggested, but they do have some common ancestry.
i think that's maybe why there is so much (spurious) comparison between the two. shared influences/principles going back a way.

and what is all that, "oh no, u cant dance to that!"
what??? who says?
did dancing not happen before cubase and subwoofers where invented?
"but how?? what were the moves??"

so yeah, don't watch that.

3. however...
for fex sake of course there should be (some reasonable level of) criticism!
as neccessary. where and when it's needed, as [username] sees fit.

check this out!! i'm gonna buss some crit!!!

i want ppl to stop making tunes where the halfstep has nothing to pull against.
the appeal of making 70bpm slowrock bluesy dirges out of dubstep is a cruel illusion!
and stop darking it out so much, a bit.
dont get that twisted, i actually really like quite a few dark, doomy tunes, but i was getting a set together recently using just new-ish tunes and i couldn't lift the mood above frown-level for long at all.
i think there's undoubtably a lot of nuanced terrain between melancholy and rage, and committedly negative emotions always seem easier to pull off convincingly,
but i get to wondering how i'm going to get all my friends brokkin to it.
some of them like to be cheered up slightly when they dance.
then, something like burial's not cheery exactly, but it's just not an all out whinge either. it's got a proper spread of blooming emotion.
anyway, that's a special example maybe. coki and skream immediately come to mind as other producers who can make strong moving choons without turning into sunn0))). (who are ace, but there's a time and a place)
on the other hand, someone should get alice cooper in on vocals. if he's got no bars he can read edgar allan poe lyrics. or that funny man from cradle of filth.

i don't really want to fling mud at particular producers though, (no pun intended consciously)
i'd rather bigup everyone who gives it a go.
just don't cop out and make crossover shit.

[doomstep]

whilst I get what ur sayin boomnoise, and agree in the most part, yeah there are some duff tunes about, I just think these things are better disscussed in private - down the pub or, if you're like me and stranded on the edge of civilisation, on IM/PM, because as damaging as a culture of mutal back patting is, the same can be said for a culture of herdish back stabbing.

I just see making a point of posting negative comments as the equivelant of writing "Kelly Lawson is a slut" on a bus shelter, sure it might be true, it might be interesting t disscuss, it may even be relevent, but it aint gonna change anything having it write up there for all to see.

Personnly I see this format as a message board, it doesnt have the face to face, the intimacy of a "real" public forum, the nuances of communication are lost, or abandoned in favour of crude & obnoxious abbreviations & catchphrases, really if someone said "audio or stfu" (or somesuch) to my face they'd be eating thru a straw for a long time.

Believe me, Im a firm advocate of dissent, & def do not think people should remain silent in any way shape or form, but I'm deeply sceptical of some peoples motives for preferring an antagonistic, inherantlly factionalized culture of "critical discourse"

That said, the idea of "just dont buy the record" isnt really gonna cut it, but I dont think this forum is the only place that objective disscussions of merit are going on, so its cool.

The point I was making about 'respect' (as you put it) was not in aid of any cause, just basic manners. The internet is breeding a culture of spoilt, ill mannered & contemptuous consumers who believe they have the devine right to things which they should count they blessings for.

basically, if you hear a swag beat, go studio, make somthing that blows it away, take the idea and flip it properlly, if you dont like the way a dj mixes, do it your way, put in work, build, words on a screen aren't bricks n concrete, disscussion and debate only go so far, the only way forward is to move. whos ready?

[monkeychops]

there's lots of critical thinking on this forum - this thread proves it. the idea that we're all here to backslap isn't a balanced view. i try to hold back un-necessary criticism. you won't find me posting a list of tracks i don't like because i don't think people would be all that interested. it's the sort of thing i talk about with people i meet, or a decision i make when record shopping. when dubstep was more garage influenced some terrible tracks were made. there are some really dull halfstep tracks around (heavy handed dub reggae copies are hardly groundbreaking) but there's still plenty of stuff i hear that excites me...and that's why i post.

[diablo]

Dubstep sucks!!!!!!!!!!

[seckle]

I just think these things are better disscussed in private - down the pub or, if you're like me and stranded on the edge of civilisation, on IM/PM, because as damaging as a culture of mutal back patting is, the same can be said for a culture of herdish back stabbing.

I just see making a point of posting negative comments as the equivelant of writing "Kelly Lawson is a slut" on a bus shelter, sure it might be true, it might be interesting t disscuss, it may even be relevent, but it aint gonna change anything having it write up there for all to see.

absolutely dead on. i haven't liked 3 of 6 tunes out there lately. that said i don't think that critical thoughts can be conveyed correctly on net forums, so why bother? if you think producer x's tune is real rubbish, why not send him/her a pm saying so?

Believe me, Im a firm advocate of dissent, & def do not think people should remain silent in any way shape or form, but I'm deeply sceptical of some peoples motives for preferring an antagonistic, inherantlly factionalized culture of "critical discourse"

That said, the idea of "just dont buy the record" isnt really gonna cut it, but I dont think this forum is the only place that objective disscussions of merit are going on, so its cool.

The point I was making about 'respect' (as you put it) was not in aid of any cause, just basic manners. The internet is breeding a culture of spoilt, ill mannered & contemptuous consumers who believe they have the devine right to things which they should count they blessings for.

basically, if you hear a swag beat, go studio, make somthing that blows it away, take the idea and flip it properlly, if you dont like the way a dj mixes, do it your way, put in work, build, words on a screen aren't bricks n concrete, disscussion and debate only go so far, the only way forward is to move. whos ready?

amen. nailed it doomy. cheers.

[zap pow]

absolutely dead on. i haven't liked 3 of 6 tunes out there lately. that said i don't think that critical thoughts can be conveyed correctly on net forums, so why bother? if you think producer x's tune is real rubbish, why not send him/her a pm saying so?

cos positivity doesn't push things forwards, it just means we get more of the same. Plus it's boring.

People have to get over this idea that the whole thing is going to fall to bits if a few people say they don't like some tunes. As long as they can back it up with reasons, there should be no problem - nobody can like everything.

[elemental]

if you hear a swag beat, go studio, make somthing that blows it away, take the idea and flip it properlly

Said it there

[digital]

I just see making a point of posting negative comments as the equivelant of writing "Kelly Lawson is a slut" on a bus shelter, sure it might be true, it might be interesting t disscuss, it may even be relevent, but it aint gonna change anything having it write up there for all to see.

I haven't seen anyone go out of their way to post negative comments, such as opening a thread like.....'dubsteps worst tracks'. I didnt think that was what we were discussing. It wasn't about people making a point to criticise, it was about criticism of tunes/producers/raves etc in open discussions and how no-one should have to hold back their honest opinion on any subject.

[zap pow]

I haven't seen anyone go out of their way to post negative comments, such as opening a thread like.....'dubsteps worst tracks'. I didnt think that was what we were discussing. It wasn't about people making a point to criticise, it was about criticism of tunes/producers/raves etc in open discussions and how no-one should have to hold back their honest opinion on any subject.

Word.

Not everyone wants to be a producer anyways. Nobody says that if you don't like a novel or a film you should go away and do your own one instead of criticising it.

[selector.dub.u]

Please forgive me I have arrived a little late for this discussion..
Anyway here it goes-----
I believe that the members of the forum and those not on the forum who have expressed that there is not enough criticism of dubstep by the fans, producers, dj's of dubstep in particular on this forum have a valid point.
I am not however going to be the one who begins the process of offering more criticisms for the reasons
outlined below.

Some, but not all, of the reasons I don't criticise dubstep productions., dj's ,people, promoters etc. on this forum very often or at all are :

I am not a music journalist (nor a very good writer) so I generally don't get involved in criticising music in written format at all. I also don't enjoy arguing over questions of aesthetics and value in tems of music in general. So I leave those discussion/arguments to those who are better qualified and who seem to enjoy doing that sort of stuff. I then absorb and analyze what they say and filter it through the eye/ears of my own values, feelings, perceptions of what is/isn't beautiful, good, etc..

From what I have seen thus far-
There seem to be some good critiques of the dubstep
subculture/music as a whole by people who are journalists within the dubstep community and outside the community and I find myself agreeing with some of these criticisms on occasion - I am not going to mention them presently however. One of the ways I get other viewpoints about dubstep is to click over to dissensus and absorb the criticism there. There seems to be reasonable ratio of detractors to enthusiasts of dubstep on that forum. Also the detractors on that forum express their critiques generally in an intelligent , logical way that make sense to me. This sort of balances out the the overzealousness of those of us who like myself are extremely devoted fans of this music we currently call dubstep and it puts things into the context for me, that hey- it's only music and music is NOT the most important thing in the scheme of all things. (whew that was hard for me to say )

I do occasionally have thoughts about trends/patterns/templates I see developing in dubstep that I am not personally happy with. One of the reasons I don't offer these criticisms is that I feel like I am perhaps an outsider and that I do not have the right to criticise dubstep since I am not from London/UK and I have not produced tunes that have been released. I often also think who am I to criticise this music?- It's not "my music ", i.e. from my country, region, my culture etc. So my criticism by nature would be that of an outsiders and therefore invalid based on location and my own lack of music/works of art to present to the culture. Basically though if I don't like something I will not buy it and that is how I express myself critically at this point.


As far as my own Dj'ing of dubstep and other music goes- I am severely critical of my own mixes. In fact I think my last one for subfm was not very good as far as my standards go- it was barely good enough this last time.
Often whenever I make a mix for subfm or anyone for that matter I often feel like they are not very good and every mistake is glaring from the programming down to the blends and efx etc.... I often hate my own mixes. But hey I keep doing it cuz I love dj'ing and mixing music and sharing it with others more than I love my critical voice. I try to take into account some of what this voice tells me and I discard the rest. I also do value contructive criticism concerning my Dj'ing and my choice of music and I get it generally from good friends of mine who's opinions I trust, online and offline. I absolutely do not expect positive feedback either.



I generally don't criticise other dj's as well- for the same reasons I don't criticize music. I will show my support and or like of something but I will not for the most part express my dislike for something. So I am sure I look overly postive at times. I do mean what I say though when I offer my opinions on things- albeit it is almost always positive.

Also it seems if people like or do not like something you/I am/ are playing or doing while one is dj'ing they will not hesitate to let me know in my experience. This is the ultimate criticism feedback loop. I always take these criticisms into account while still attempting to dj and make mixes from the heart that I personally enjoy mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically

Anyway
I hope I don't sound to goofy please disregard that personal babbling at the end or whatever
Thats my 2 cents.

[subliminal]

Just curious, what made this such a big topic - did i miss something?

Was somebody too critical of someone else and feelings got hurt? What gives...

[necta selecta]

Ok, so just out of interest then, is there actually ANYONE on this forum who doesn't like or has even some minor critisism about any of the following:

Request line, Blipstream, Conference, Earth a run red, Horroshow, Ruffage, Star wars (/ Hatcha dub) , that new coki one with the singing, 9 samurai, pop pop, lion v.i.p, angels or punisher ?

Tell me why (either here or in a p.m. if you think it's counter productive to post it.)

[autonomic]

boomnoise - you nailed it, point by point.

[danolboy]

I think this has blown out of all proportion and people need to take a step back a bit.

All this talk of there being a need for negativity. Thats just plain wrong. Criticism does not have to be layed down on purely negative vibes, I've seen plenty of feedback in the music section for peoples tunes that has been totally constructive without straying into the realms of unneccesary harshness.

Personally the day that every second thread is about slagging the scene, the music, the club nights off will be a bad one.

whats this about a back slapping culture as well? This is a forum for dubstep lovers, of course people are going to be talking about their passion for it.

I don't agree with individual tracks being slagged off, whether a tune is good or not is totally in the eye of the beholder.

[nedbeauman]

So the consensus is that criticism is by nature so subjective as to be pointless, and should be kept for private conversations? I look forward to seeing that view consistently followed the next time someone brings up techstep d'n'b or funky house or NME indie.

[t-mus]

The higher the monkey can climb,
the more he shows his tail.

-T. Waits-


you can't grow without critisism.
the whole idea of evolution is based on knowing what doesn't work.
a forum is a place to express your personal thoughts.
this includes critisism.
when you can give constructive critisism, please do so!
this has nothing to do with disrespect.
critisism isn't automatically a negative opinion.

more to add?

[wil blaze]

simon reynolds' tune of 2005 was 'reload it' by kano

it's a cheap shot mentioning that here, but whatevs

you know what though i thought that was a big tune... the percussion and the beats were murderous!

peace

[mos dan]

fair enough. i like some cheesy garage-y kano stuff quite a lot but just not that one really. i think reynolds went a bit over the top with his, ahem, 'interpretation' of it in blackdown's end of year interview as well.

don't get me wrong he's an interesting writer a lot of the time, he just seemed to be exhibiting a greater interest in theory than in the music itself in his comments, and his 'top 5 of 2005' betrayed a pretty narrow view of what had come through/come out that year - it was all really mainstream stuff.

[joseph-j]

you can't grow without critisism.
the whole idea of evolution is based on knowing what doesn't work.

I'm not entirely convinced badmouthing people on a forum is a path to pushing things forward.

Surely if a tune is shit it won't get played out and it won't get bought?