Juggling different sub frequencies

[nex]

Yo guys, does anyone else find themselves having to automate their filters, eq etc to match notes being played when dropping a bit of melody on your sub bass? eg the resonance, you can get it sounding perfect for one note but as soon as you shift a semitone or two then the sound just dies. So I'm sort of using different eq/filter settings (and a few other things) for each different note.

It works but it's fiddly... am I missing some obvious way to do this better or is it something everyone does? Or should I just stick to single-note sub basslines...

[slothrop]

How are you making subs?

I tend to use pure sine (or something like a bit of triangle mixed with a sine if there's nothing over the top and I want it to have a bit of presence), no resonant filters and no EQ so it doesn't give me a problem.

Edit: if you are using a filter, does your synth have a "key track" option? That would make the filter pitch follow the note pitch, which seems to be what you're after.

[slim]

Resample the best note

Works every time and means less effects needed therefore less CPU

Win - Win situation right there

[macc]

Pros and cons to both Key tracking would be the most obvious option, but it can be fiddly to get perfect sometimes.

Resampling is simpler but if there's any time-dependent stuff happening it can mess it up. Tempo-synced lfo's or whatever won't be perfectly in time if replaying resampled notes at other pitches. That can be nice, and you hear it a lot, just something to be aware of

[black lotus]

Tempo-synced lfo's or whatever won't be perfectly in time if replaying resampled notes at other pitches.

unless the sample is cut perfectly and then synced to the master clock. FLstudio does this and so does Ableton, and probably other host apps.



another few thoughts about this subject. there's some things that happen with subs (and really waves in general) that most have heard before. this is the concept of 'beating' or 'beat frequencies' which is when two waves approach your ear drum, at specific intervals, they create a third type of wave between them (or lack of wave... interference). it's difficult for me to explain, but this page may elicidate:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... /beat.html

this happens *a lot* if you aren't managing your low end well. this is probably one of the issues you might run into. really, you shouldn't have to limit yourself to single note sub bass.

another thing that is very common is to make/record your basses mono, not stereo. this is because frequencies that low don't really need to be panned and doing so, especially with multiple low end freqs, can cause phase distortions and weird, usually undesired, timing effects.. in some cases it can even mess with the pitch of other tones.

just some things to think about. if anyone has clarification/correction to any of this.. put it down

[pompende]

keep the resonance turned all the way down on your sub... that is probably magnifying whatever problem you're having.

[spire]

yeah i just use sines, then usually lay a synth over it with the sub bass cut off.

but of course thats only one way of many and may not be the sound you want.

[macc]

unless the sample is cut perfectly and then synced to the master clock. FLstudio does this and so does Ableton, and probably other host apps.

Perefctly true of course, although personally I'm not a big fan of timestretching on low frequencies (even by small amounts)

another thing that is very common is to make/record your basses mono, not stereo. this is because frequencies that low don't really need to be panned and doing so, especially with multiple low end freqs, can cause phase distortions and weird, usually undesired, timing effects.. in some cases it can even mess with the pitch of other tones. just some things to think about. if anyone has clarification/correction to any of this.. put it down

Just going to waffle here, you can't go inviting me like that

There's nothing inherently wrong about panning bass, though as you say it's fairly uncommon due to the dimished perceived directionality of low freqs. Panning an otherwise central, mono, sub certainly doesn't cause 'phase distortions' Sorry (really!) to be such a picky twat, but using the term 'phase distortions' is incorrect in this context, and not what this discussion is referring to at all. They're something different

Out of phase low frequencies - say, big wide chorussed subs - are a different matter, but are also perfectly acceptable on CD, mp3 etc, contrary to popular belief. There's nothing inherently different about low freqs from a physical point of view other than (in the average mix) their peak amplitude, which is why you won't get very far sticking large stereo bass on vinyl (needle jumping out of groove etc). Plus you'll suffer in a situation where bass gets collapsed to mono (some clubs, vinyl, blah blah), as everyone knows. So it is usually best avoided. This is phase cancellation upon mono-isation (not phase distortions, sorry to labour the point ) .


The pitch thing can happen though, it's fucked up when you hear it. I need to think about the processes behind that though, to be honest, not sure what it is other than a psychoacoustic phenomenon. Anyone? As for the undesired timing effects, could you expand a little on what you mean? Not sure I am with you but it is interesting

Sorry waffling, and not meaning to be a prick or anything

[whineo]

The thing thats always puzzeled me Macc (if I may be so bold to expand on this topic and slightly digress)
... is how the slope of my eq cuts relating to the sub are affecting to overall energy and presence of the sub note.
Now I know about splitting in to lows mids and his for the bass and processing accordingly to add width and presence blah blah
but a while ago in a DOA Q&A with breakage he was literally saying that he just gets the sub notes looking like a peak in the analyser with little width.

However; when your cutting sounds that sit above 100hz persay you really notice the setting of you eq slope 12db to 24db.
so shaping a sub 85hz sine wave when its isolated - is it beneficial to really be anal about shaping this? or can you just low pass it at 85hz etc and be done with it.

the above doesnt really make sense but I only have 20 seconds left for my lunch so rewording is not an option

[black lotus]

Just going to waffle here, you can't go inviting me like that

There's nothing inherently wrong about panning bass, though as you say it's fairly uncommon due to the dimished perceived directionality of low freqs. Panning an otherwise central, mono, sub certainly doesn't cause 'phase distortions' Sorry (really!) to be such a picky twat, but using the term 'phase distortions' is incorrect in this context, and not what this discussion is referring to at all. They're something different

Out of phase low frequencies - say, big wide chorussed subs - are a different matter, but are also perfectly acceptable on CD, mp3 etc, contrary to popular belief. There's nothing inherently different about low freqs from a physical point of view other than (in the average mix) their peak amplitude, which is why you won't get very far sticking large stereo bass on vinyl (needle jumping out of groove etc). Plus you'll suffer in a situation where bass gets collapsed to mono (some clubs, vinyl, blah blah), as everyone knows. So it is usually best avoided. This is phase cancellation upon mono-isation (not phase distortions, sorry to labour the point ) .


The pitch thing can happen though, it's fucked up when you hear it. I need to think about the processes behind that though, to be honest, not sure what it is other than a psychoacoustic phenomenon. Anyone? As for the undesired timing effects, could you expand a little on what you mean? Not sure I am with you but it is interesting

Sorry waffling, and not meaning to be a prick or anything

nah no worries. that's how discussions happen. i did have to decipher your syntax a bit, it wasn't all that clear what you were saying.

what i got was that you were saying panning sub is ok, and my use of the term 'phase distortion' was incorrect. i think you also said that having phase cancellation was ok? couldn't quite follow you on that one..

so perhaps the term i wanted to use was phase cancellation, not distortion. now, mind you i am getting most of my info from experimenting and a school i went to in seattle, and these are a bunch of older rocker type guys, more or less. bearing that in mind, we were always taught to record in mono and deal with sub in mono due to the fact that it was just easier to handle, and that there isn't much need for panned sub unless you are doing some kind of arty thing.

i've also experience a ton of phase issues with sub personally, mostly due to the fact that i have no sub monitor and if everything is not eqd correctly (depending on the samples used) then the sub turns into mud, frequencies overlap and beat and just generally have undesired effects. my use of phase cancellation might have been incorrect, but certainly it is more of a possible issue with stereo/panning sub than with a solid centered sub. just an opinion of course, though if there's science behind it i'd love to see some writing about it.

idk what i meant by timing effects exactly, except maybe it was a reference to the beating which could be considered a timing effect, i suppose. rhetoricals..

to this day, i try to deal with my subs in mono, unless i am trying to do some kind of tricky effect. i typically do not chorus my sub, but have no issues adding chorus to 90Hz+ and in reference to whineo's post, i typically just cut-off @ 24dB and leave it. i might tweak the resonance peak if needed..

just personal standards maybe, but it seems to work out.

[macc]

nah no worries. that's how discussions happen. i did have to decipher your syntax a bit, it wasn't all that clear what you were saying.

Sorry man, it was written in bits between work stuff... probably like this one will be.

what i got was that you were saying panning sub is ok, and my use of the term 'phase distortion' was incorrect. i think you also said that having phase cancellation was ok? couldn't quite follow you on that one..

I was saying;

- simply panning an otherwise mono/central sub won't cause phase problems. It will cause problems with shifting stereo image and/or ducking of the opposite side during compression across the mix and other shit like that, but that's not the point here

- there's no physical reason you can't have big wide stereo chorussed basses at 31Hz if vinyl isn't a consideration. CDs don't give a shit about that. I 110% agree that having subs central with stereo stuff further up is the best way for the sake of 'grounding' the mix etc though, totally agree! That's a musical thing though, I'm just trying to differentiate the two.

to this day, i try to deal with my subs in mono, unless i am trying to do some kind of tricky effect. i typically do not chorus my sub, but have no issues adding chorus to 90Hz+ and in reference to whineo's post, i typically just cut-off @ 24dB and leave it. i might tweak the resonance peak if needed..

just personal standards maybe, but it seems to work out.

I certainly wasn't attacking your personal preferences man and apologise if it came across that way. I also totally agree for the musical reasons for doing sub that way I was just trying to clarify the physics. And failed

[Sharmaji]

just as important: if you've got a couple of notes that are really popping out at you and you're just using a sine wave as your sub-- those are the really resonant frequencies in your room. chances are you've got a few notes that sound completely empty, too-- those are the frequencies where your room acts as a node and eats up the sound.

checking your low end in headphones can help to keep things balanced, but overall, it's all about treating your room to handle things more accurately.

[nospin]

now, mind you i am getting most of my info from experimenting and a school i went to in seattle, and these are a bunch of older rocker type guys, more or less. bearing that in mind, we were always taught to record in mono and deal with sub in mono due to the fact that it was just easier to handle, and that there isn't much need for panned sub unless you are doing some kind of arty thing.

just curious, what school?

[black lotus]

just curious, what school?

art institute of seattle, audio production

got to work with a lot of really great gear and get a ton of hands-on experience with huge boards, tape, outboard hardware fx, etc.

I certainly wasn't attacking your personal preferences man and apologise if it came across that way. I also totally agree for the musical reasons for doing sub that way I was just trying to clarify the physics. And failed

haha no worries.. i guess i should go back and figure out why i was thinking in the way i was and re-integrate what you've just told me. thanks!

[macc]

I missed this post, sorry It's addressed t me so I'll answer, hopefully concisely

but a while ago in a DOA Q&A with breakage he was literally saying that he just gets the sub notes looking like a peak in the analyser with little width.

Now Breakage is a fine fine fine producer and a top chap too, but I am really not a fan of basing anything on an analyser, mix wise. I don't paint with my ears any more than I mix with my eyes

However; when your cutting sounds that sit above 100hz persay you really notice the setting of you eq slope 12db to 24db.
so shaping a sub 85hz sine wave when its isolated - is it beneficial to really be anal about shaping this? or can you just low pass it at 85hz etc and be done with it.

the above doesnt really make sense but I only have 20 seconds left for my lunch so rewording is not an option

The above doesn't make sense in terms of physics that is for sure

I'd love to know how you can shape an 85Hz sine wave. I really would!! What is the point of lowpassing a sine wave?

Perhaps it's your hasty writing, or cos it is late here, but reading it now this shows a real lack of basic knowledge of audio fundamentals. Hopefully we can sort that out though

[whineo]

this shows a real lack of basic knowledge of audio fundamentals.

Sure does, I just hit buttons and hope for the best to be honest.

[breakage]

this shows a real lack of basic knowledge of audio fundamentals.

Sure does, I just hit buttons and hope for the best to be honest.

ditto lol

[black lotus]

ditto lol

ahaha even better since you were referenced earlier


this was always a divide for me. i *love* knowing about the physics of sound and how everything happens, but generally this information does fuckall to help my art. the only thing it has really helped me in is designing individual sounds and creating patches that are based on 'standards' that are based on my personal understanding of sound (which basically amounts to "does it sounds good?")..

[misk]

you get to a point where the technology, and the interface become transparent, and all thats left is you and your art.




































...or so i've been told.

[black lotus]

you get to a point where the technology, and the interface become transparent, and all thats left is you and your art.

it's true.. but i have no idea how it happens. or why it happens to some and not to others. maybe it's a "knack".. or some type of understanding of what you are dealing with, even if it is subconscious..