Joe Biden, the RAVE act, dubstepforum, and you

[xi]

I have found this thread to be incredibly interesting.

[djshiva]

anyone who thinks the RAVE act doesn't affect them hasn't thought a lot about how expansion of government powers under the guise of the drug war has DEVASTATED this country and people in it.

that the act gives the government powers to charge people who happen to own the venues where someone may choose to do drugs (basically expanding the crackhouse laws with very vague definitions) is FRIGHTENING. that bottled water is defined as a potential indicator of drug use is simply sheer idiocy.

if you think this has only affected "bad" promoters, then are you also one of those people who thinks "if you are doing nothing wrong, you shouldn't worry about the government or the police"? history has shown us this is a misconception of the highest order, and yet we keep looking the other way when governments take the steps of expanding their powers to interfere with our lives.

will i still vote for obama/biden? sure. but will i keep a hawkeye on any potential policies they support for fear that they will continue to expand the drug war? fuck yeah i will.

[dubsola]

Were I American, I'd vote for Obama for the following reasons:

Frankly, this kind of post is exactly what I was afraid of in this thread...I tried to be clear in my first post(and Shiva has very astutely reiterated my point several times thereafter), this is *not* ANYBODY saying "I'm not voting for Obama because of the RAVE act or ________", this is taking a serious look at something which affects many people on this board, directly, by a politician who is running for office and a majority of this board supports.

My post was in response to bellybelle:

If McCain wasn't even in the picture....if McCain/Palin were not the opposition.... what does it still mean to vote for Obama/Biden? Do we not, as American citizens, owe it to ourselves and our country to examine what that actually means?

I think the reasons I gave explain what it would mean to ME to vote for Obama. I would be voting for those positive aspects to his policies.

... Wow, this thread devolved quickly.

I'm just gonna flat-out say it, I think a lot of folks on this board are getting the Ostrich syndrome at any thought of being critical of Obama's campaign, and that is very unfortunate. Support includes scrutiny...even criticism.

I agree absolutely that it is important to be aware of who you are voting for and why, and that no politician is perfect. I also agree wholeheartedly with the idea that it is possible to be a part of the solution even after you have visited the polling booth (ignoring the fact that most Americans don't even vote anyway). Is there an American equivalent of the site They Work For You?

What you can do, is type in your postcode, work out who is your MP (I guess the equivalent would be your local, state, or federal senator / congressperson), then view all the things they have voted on or will be voting on, and then write them a letter or email saying what you think. It's pretty awesome. I used it to write my local MP who was voting FOR the proposition to increase the number of days someone could be held without charge here in the UK. I got an actual, hand-signed letter back from her. She didn't change her mind, but at least I tried.

By the way, it's possible to have a discussion without calling people ostriches or fucking stupid.

[bellybelle]

By the way, it's possible to have a discussion without calling people ostriches or fucking stupid.

i agree on this. however, i can also note how entirely frustrating it is when the original post states to not compare Biden to Palin or any other person or talk about anything except what the possible ramifications are to having Biden, a supporter of the RAVE act, be the VP.....and instead of actually reviewing what that would mean to have him be VP....there is a stream of comments about everything the original post requested people not do. Equally frustrating is repeatedly saying this to Obama supporters who continue to retort basically, "STFU. L2Vote4Obama." Though all of the people who have been questioning Biden have admitted to being Obama supporters, the response from the staunch Obama supporters have still neglected that very first comment, which was to have a discussion without the comparison and strictly for just the situation of what it could mean for us to have Biden as VP--not in relation to...or in opposition of...but what does it mean.

I explained this to my friend yesterday in this analogy. Its like someone is speaking Italian to me (I don't speak Italian). They say something and I reply...."I don't speak Italian. I don't understand," and instead of translating or finding someone who speaks english, the person just shouts the phrase louder and slower in Italian. No matter how much people stated over and over again that this was to be a discussion of just Biden and him being VP, people kept going back to the fact that he's better than Palin, that no one was changing their vote to McCain/Palin, and gives reasons why they would vote for Obama--NONE of which was the point of the original post.

Like those tests where you're supposed to read carefully a list of instructions before acting on them. Then you take the test and look around the room at people standing up and barking, hopping on one leg, etc. Not ever bothering to note that the very last instruction on the page was, "Only write your name in the top corner and don't do the rest of the things written on the page." So you sit there, with just your written name on the top of the page, while everyone else goes through the motions, and you realize that they didn't read the list carefully before following instructions, because if they had, they'd be sitting there with you with just their names written on the top of the page, instead of hopping around and barking.

[dubsola]

Fair enough, and I can see why that would be frustrating.

I guess people are just thinking 'well, this is one particular issue on which I disagree, but there are a bunch of other issues that are more important'. And maybe they can't get past that, or maybe there's not a lot to say about the RAVE act? I've no idea.

[ben freeman]

In my town last summer, a well known local promoter threw a party on one of the islands on the Susquehanna river. They were expecting close to a 1000 people. They didn't take out permits from the city, and went totally renegade. I was there, and it was pretty much a giant drug emporium....everyone was doing shit openly, acid, K and ecstasy was everywhere. They shut down the boats at 11pm, so nobody else could come across the river, but that didn't stop many from trying to swim across, including my roommates. About 4am a guy trying to swim across drowned in the river and the shit hit the fan. The promoters got felonies now, and rightly so, as it was just a matter of time till shit got fucked up at this party. (It was the 7th year they did it.)

I'm not sure how the Rave Act would have affected this situation, but I do know that many parties SHOULDN't happen, cause people are fucking stupid, and do stupid shit at these parties. They should be legit, with permits and the whole 9. Promoters need to work out the kinks before they try and throw some out of control party. The message boards in the area were steaming after the fact, with super enraged patrons, who spent time in jail just for being there. People were pissed off at the promoters for being so irresponsible with the way they handled things.

As for Obama, and Biden's rave act, it didn't pass, and the fact that the Rave scene in the US is barely even alive anymore, out of the limelight, I don't think right now that electing Obama will affect us as party goers and promoters here in the US. They have more important things to worry about, like the economy, etc. That on top of the fact that I agree much more with Obama and Biden than Mccain and his toy wench on issues, means I'm voting for Obama.

[dj cal cutta]

Fair enough, and I can see why that would be frustrating.

Thank you

[djshiva]

In my town last summer, a well known local promoter threw a party on one of the islands on the Susquehanna river. They were expecting close to a 1000 people. They didn't take out permits from the city, and went totally renegade. I was there, and it was pretty much a giant drug emporium....everyone was doing shit openly, acid, K and ecstasy was everywhere. They shut down the boats at 11pm, so nobody else could come across the river, but that didn't stop many from trying to swim across, including my roommates. About 4am a guy trying to swim across drowned in the river and the shit hit the fan. The promoters got felonies now, and rightly so, as it was just a matter of time till shit got fucked up at this party. (It was the 7th year they did it.)

I'm not sure how the Rave Act would have affected this situation, but I do know that many parties SHOULDN't happen, cause people are fucking stupid, and do stupid shit at these parties. They should be legit, with permits and the whole 9. Promoters need to work out the kinks before they try and throw some out of control party. The message boards in the area were steaming after the fact, with super enraged patrons, who spent time in jail just for being there. People were pissed off at the promoters for being so irresponsible with the way they handled things.

As for Obama, and Biden's rave act, it didn't pass, and the fact that the Rave scene in the US is barely even alive anymore, out of the limelight, I don't think right now that electing Obama will affect us as party goers and promoters here in the US. They have more important things to worry about, like the economy, etc. That on top of the fact that I agree much more with Obama and Biden than Mccain and his toy wench on issues, means I'm voting for Obama.

while i do believe that some basic security measures are a smart move for anyone throwing any kind of event, i also question the assumption that if someone AT the event chooses to do drugs, that it is the responsibility of the event promoter. if this is the case, then malls across america, schools, and sports arenas should be shut down and their owners charged.

as for whether the RAVE act passed, it did not pass in that name, but basically the same bill with a new name (Illicit Drug Anti-ProliferationAct) DID pass because it was piggy-backed onto the Amber Alert bill. also sponsored by biden, and by using the piggybacking...there was no debate over the bill.

[parson]

we should also jail all doctors who prescribe unnecessary meds (all of them)

[parson]

and jail parents who give their kids speed so they will behave at their indoctrination sessions

[ben freeman]

In my town last summer, a well known local promoter threw a party on one of the islands on the Susquehanna river. They were expecting close to a 1000 people. They didn't take out permits from the city, and went totally renegade. I was there, and it was pretty much a giant drug emporium....everyone was doing shit openly, acid, K and ecstasy was everywhere. They shut down the boats at 11pm, so nobody else could come across the river, but that didn't stop many from trying to swim across, including my roommates. About 4am a guy trying to swim across drowned in the river and the shit hit the fan. The promoters got felonies now, and rightly so, as it was just a matter of time till shit got fucked up at this party. (It was the 7th year they did it.)

I'm not sure how the Rave Act would have affected this situation, but I do know that many parties SHOULDN't happen, cause people are fucking stupid, and do stupid shit at these parties. They should be legit, with permits and the whole 9. Promoters need to work out the kinks before they try and throw some out of control party. The message boards in the area were steaming after the fact, with super enraged patrons, who spent time in jail just for being there. People were pissed off at the promoters for being so irresponsible with the way they handled things.

As for Obama, and Biden's rave act, it didn't pass, and the fact that the Rave scene in the US is barely even alive anymore, out of the limelight, I don't think right now that electing Obama will affect us as party goers and promoters here in the US. They have more important things to worry about, like the economy, etc. That on top of the fact that I agree much more with Obama and Biden than Mccain and his toy wench on issues, means I'm voting for Obama.

while i do believe that some basic security measures are a smart move for anyone throwing any kind of event, i also question the assumption that if someone AT the event chooses to do drugs, that it is the responsibility of the event promoter. if this is the case, then malls across america, schools, and sports arenas should be shut down and their owners charged.

as for whether the RAVE act passed, it did not pass in that name, but basically the same bill with a new name (Illicit Drug Anti-ProliferationAct) DID pass because it was piggy-backed onto the Amber Alert bill. also sponsored by biden, and by using the piggybacking...there was no debate over the bill.

Yea, I WAS at the party, but I soon realized while there (and only drinking BYOB) that shit was way out of hand, but as any other lazy American, I just went with it. In retrospect, it kinda felt like a movie crack house.

Also, Since they have passed the Rave Act disquised as something else, has it really changed the landscape of how Raves are being thrown?

I Do know that clearly there aren't as many as their used to be, but I think half of that is because everyone is an Indie rocker instead, and the popularity of raves has diminished.

Are there any clear examples of how this Illict Drug Act has affected raves in America?

[parson]

has there ever been any evidence that prohibition helps ANYTHING?

raves used to be all over the place in america. then they started getting shut down and people started going to jail. now there's no raves.

if you can't connect the dots, join the club. this is like the can't-connect-the-dots country.

[hera]

9 out of ten times: bars/clubs > shady warehouse venue

[waefah]

Drugs r baad, mmkaay: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150415/

[emu]

anyone who thinks the RAVE act doesn't affect them hasn't thought a lot about how expansion of government powers under the guise of the drug war has DEVASTATED this country and people in it.

that the act gives the government powers to charge people who happen to own the venues where someone may choose to do drugs (basically expanding the crackhouse laws with very vague definitions) is FRIGHTENING. that bottled water is defined as a potential indicator of drug use is simply sheer idiocy.

if you think this has only affected "bad" promoters, then are you also one of those people who thinks "if you are doing nothing wrong, you shouldn't worry about the government or the police"? history has shown us this is a misconception of the highest order, and yet we keep looking the other way when governments take the steps of expanding their powers to interfere with our lives.

will i still vote for obama/biden? sure. but will i keep a hawkeye on any potential policies they support for fear that they will continue to expand the drug war? fuck yeah i will.

i agree with everything you say- i was just saying it hasnt affected me personally...YET. yes i do find the vagueness of the language in it disturbing and potentially dangerous when it comes to how it can be used to get people in trouble...i wish it wasnt this way... and yeah im not just going to blindly exhalt them once (if) they are elected. everyone needs to be kept an eye on for sure. completely agree with you.

[emu]

and the whole argument about STAY ON TOPIC OR STFU is a bit much.....i mean ill give you another analogy to counter yours:

its like saying hey talk about what monkeys eat without talking about bananas...its like that game Tabboo...is it really necessary to police your thread so vehemently? my2cents

[bellybelle]

and the whole argument about STAY ON TOPIC OR STFU is a bit much.....i mean ill give you another analogy to counter yours:

its like saying hey talk about what monkeys eat without talking about bananas...its like that game Tabboo...is it really necessary to police your thread so vehemently? my2cents

That's kind of a justification for not paying attention. With the numerous amounts of threads dedicated on this forum to proclaiming Team Obama/Biden to be the superior choice, why would you feel it necessary to choose one that explicitly asks you not to do that? And it is just as easy to start a thread based on that topic, is it not? And the people who wanted to talk about the premise of the original thread kept bringing it back? So why then would you feel it necessary, when over and over again it was mentioned that this wasn't the purpose of it?

Hehehe thats like going into a biology class, and when the teacher wants to talk about the evolution of certain species, instead, discussing creationism and then blame the teacher for not teaching creationism in a biology class.

[emu]

and the whole argument about STAY ON TOPIC OR STFU is a bit much.....i mean ill give you another analogy to counter yours:

its like saying hey talk about what monkeys eat without talking about bananas...its like that game Tabboo...is it really necessary to police your thread so vehemently? my2cents

That's kind of a justification for not paying attention. With the numerous amounts of threads dedicated on this forum to proclaiming Team Obama/Biden to be the superior choice, why would you feel it necessary to choose one that explicitly asks you not to do that? And it is just as easy to start a thread based on that topic, is it not? And the people who wanted to talk about the premise of the original thread kept bringing it back? So why then would you feel it necessary, when over and over again it was mentioned that this wasn't the purpose of it?

Hehehe thats like going into a biology class, and when the teacher wants to talk about the evolution of certain species, instead, discussing creationism and then blame the teacher for not teaching creationism in a biology class.

hehe touché jus checkin

[bellybelle]

hehe touché jus checkin