Your Thoughts on DSF Sample Competitions?

alphacat · Post by **alphacat** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:40 am

For better or worse (probably some of both) there are more users than ever on this board and especially in the Production forum. On a positive note, the DSF Sample Pack Remix competitions have been growing too: the sample packs keep getting better and better, the submissions reflect more and more quality & originality, and in general a lot of us really look forward to 'em.

But-

With all of the growth and change and whatnot, it seems that things are also getting more... convoluted. More confusing. More tedious.

For instance, as much as I love to hear other people bust out with their take on a set of sounds - the more submissions we have the more difficult it is to objectively decide which tune to vote for. The last competition had NINETEEN entries - and only 28 votes. No matter how ill & freaky people get with their fx plugs, re-sampling, overprocessing - it's still nineteen variations on a theme... and this is probably why those still voting are often the creators of the tunes and their mates.

Further, with this many submissions, people who happen to appear on a certain number in the playlist are fucked before anyone even hears it. Number 1 out of 19 is screwed because people will instinctively say "Oh, it's alright... but I can't vote for #1, that's too obvious." Similarly for #19 (and 18, 17, 16 right on through to 12 or 13 probably) - by the time they get through that many versions of the tune they're probably just ready for a nap or worse, to stop listening to any Dubstep until their ears have recovered!

And submission requirements have been pretty clear - yet there's always a load of folks who either didn't read it, didn't understand it, or just plain didn't care, and we wind up with stuff like "I submitted it but you didn't post it" as happened last time. This can all be fixed by just plainly asking contestants to put a simple, standardized sentence in their subject line...

So what am I saying here anyway?

Perhaps it's time to casually rethink the DSF contest rules to make things more clear and easier on everybody. I'm not claiming to have solutions to any of this stuff - I just know that, in Obama's words, we can do better. Maybe a fixed and reasonable number of entries allowed (I'd say no more than 8, but that's just me); maybe we use the lottery method to determine who gets to enter (to give everyone a fair chance, novice & pro alike); maybe we use a shuffle mode on the player to make sure it's different for each listener; maybe we even spin it into sub contests so the dark shit doesn't have to compete against some happy bubbler of a tune, or...

Your thoughts?

djake · Post by **djake** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:52 am

if you enter you are obviously saying u will be up for sorting out the next one and all the shit that goes with it....

otherwise why enter?

alphacat · Post by **alphacat** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:59 am

Absolutely right.

So maybe we give the would-be sorter better tools to sort it out when they win...

boomstix · Post by **boomstix** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:03 am

19 entries and 28 votes...

does that mean that most people who entered voted and not many others did?

If that's the case then why not just relax and let it be about the producers and the fun process of making music

and not worry too much about voting and who wins.

darkmatteruk · Post by **darkmatteruk** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:07 am

boomstix wrote:19 entries and 28 votes...

does that mean that most people who entered voted and not many others did?

If that's the case then why not just relax and let it be about the producers and the fun process of making music

and not worry too much about voting and who wins.

i agree, but at the same time, look how many views and listens each competition gets.
its the same as the dubs section, if you can be bothered to take the time to listen, how come you cant be bothered to either vote or give feedback. its pure lazyness, its allmost as if some people are completely missing the point of what this place is all about

alphacat · Post by **alphacat** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:19 am

boomstix wrote:19 entries and 28 votes...

does that mean that most people who entered voted and not many others did?

If that's the case then why not just relax and let it be about the producers and the fun process of making music

and not worry too much about voting and who wins.

Sure, it's all a piss take and for fun and whatnot...

But then, WTF is the point of a contest? Why isn't it just a "here's a bunch of samples/everybody remix and post and that's it" thing then? Or put another way... why make a game that makes it difficult for you to enjoy playing it?

It really is all about fun in the end, but it's also a good way for producers to get feedback from both other producers AND general fans. If it's not fun - and nobody's giving/getting feedback - then... why?

Not only that, but if these things wind up as 320's that people can download, then maybe your tune might wind up getting played out on a big system. Lots of producers (both veterans and newcomers) would love for that to happen.

boomstix · Post by **boomstix** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:31 am

Alphacat wrote: why make a game that makes it difficult for you to enjoy playing it?

i hear that. more feedback would be good.

spencertron · Post by **spencertron** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:46 am

i've probably only ever listened to one or two entries in all the competitions...it's just too much to get through.

preferred misk's 'tune fight' threads...easier to digest.

glottis5 · Post by **glottis5** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:32 am

boomstix wrote:19 entries and 28 votes...

does that mean that most people who entered voted and not many others did?

If that's the case then why not just relax and let it be about the producers and the fun process of making music

and not worry too much about voting and who wins.

To be fair, the poll was restarted and the first one had about 35 votes. Still not a lot, and the reason is most likely fatigue - it's more than an hour of music to go through, but limiting the amount of participants or paritioning them doesn't seem very fair or practical, escpecially considering that it's supposed to be fun.

But shuffling the songs does seem like a good idea, I'll see what I can do with that.

blip · Post by **blip** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:49 am

Just occurred to me that limiting the length of the tracks could make listening less of a chore.

Maximum 3 minutes? Enough to develop ideas.

pdomino · Post by **pdomino** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:34 am

The problem is people dont want to trawl through 18 x 4 minute tracks, need to be cut up for intro and drop perhaps !

paradigm_x · Post by **paradigm_x** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:59 am

There was no mention at all on the main forum until i posted it up the day before the voting ended. And that got no replies/interest, prob because ive lurked for ages and not got much credentials round here.

If mods here got involved and posted a sticky (or even a global announcement) then maybe more people would listen and vote.

But yeah, that doesn't get round the problem of listening to 19+ tracks. it would be quite demoralising to get no votes.

Theres a DDR remix comp at the mo with a cash and release prize, and a really long time to enter. I dread to think how many entries there will be (to listen thru and vote) , although i fully support the DDR lads and think its a very generous offer. Its likely that there will be about 30 tunes with 1 vote each.

Youve raised some interesting points. Its all a bit of fun at the end of the day but it would be nice if it could be improved.

Peas.

Ben PDX

serox · Post by **serox** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:11 am

Discogs had something going on like this but for dj mixes of users on the forum.

The way they did it the only people who could vote were the people who entered the comp and everyone had to give 2 mixes marks out of 5
(or whatever it is).

here are some of the rules.

Comment Rules:
- keep your comments constructive and fair (blatant hate comments will be deleted)
- please don't mention how many points you gave! (influences the listeners too much)
- If you comment negative, please give a reason why. If you completely dislike a mix, think about not commenting this mix. Maybe it's just not your music.
- DJ's: you can't comment your own mixes, but if you feel like giving props for other mixes you can do so
- if you DJ's want to react on some comments like someone spreading wrong info, eg this is a digital mix while it's not etc, mail MONK and he'll comment it in your name under 'AnonymousDJ', since you are not allowed to react on such things ; )

Voting Rules:
- you can vote 1 mix, more or all
- if you want to vote a mix, you should have heard every mix but you're not forced to!
- DJ's: you can vote all mixes but not your own mix (too negative votes will be deleted)
- as soon as you know about a DJ's identity, you're not allowed to vote for him* (eg hosting his mixes on your server, or being a mate of the DJ)

How to give your points:
- you can enter 1 to 5 points for a mix while 5 is the best and 1 is crap. It doesn't matter if you give X-points multiple times or one number not once at all, just don't vote everything 5
- the main aspects for rating are the general liking / flow / impression you have and the mixing skills but NOT the style!
- try to vote all mixes, keeping a vote field blank will count it as not voted (1 point is the worst to give)
- you're totally free in handling the points, your voted mixes could look like this: | 5 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 2 | 4 | 5 | …
- you can view / change your comments and votes at any time before the deadline
* tecxx and MONK assume that you trust us and let us neutrally vote the mixes in the sense of the tournament. (like last time we'll forget who is who anyway after a week : )

- due to many different styles don't let your comment / vote get influenced too much by the other comments or by what your favourite style is, open your mind, go on a journey with the DJ and concentrate your review more on the mixing skills and entertaining part of the mix. That doesn't mean in your ears 'shit music shouldn't be voted 1, but in the end we don't want to know what the most liked style under the listeners is, but who has the best mixing skills, or?
- it doesn't matter if you comment only and add / change your voting points later or vice versa. Just don't forget to give your points.
- to clear a comment / vote delete all text and hit "Vote!".

For the final rank listing the given points will be calculated with the Bayes Formular for handling more or less voted mixes fairly.

http://www.discogs.com/groups/topic/86011

wub · Post by **wub** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:14 am

boomstix wrote:19 entries and 28 votes...

does that mean that most people who entered voted and not many others did?

Not necessarily - some of the entries didn't have any votes for them, meaning the creators either didn't vote, or else did the sensible thing and didn't just vote for themselves.

I think too much emphasis is being put by some of this being a contest. It's an exercise in seeing how people use things differently.

paradigm_x · Post by **paradigm_x** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:53 am

i thought it was unfair to vote for myself so never have. FWIW

s.i.e · Post by **s.i.e** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:29 pm

You cant really govern a comp too much without offering a substantial prize to the winner to ensure a big response and be able to have a better rules system in place etc. IMO it is more a comp with oneself as you battle against time and creativity with having a deadline and a samplepack to limit what you can do. But as everyone has said so far, It's just a bit of fun at the end of the day and sometimes it helps to get those creative juices flowing again, for me anyway, after a stale period.

FSTZ1 · Post by **FSTZ1** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:36 pm

I have helped with 2 of these contests and honestly, it's quite a bit to handle

spencertron · Post by **spencertron** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:46 pm

Once a month tune fight FTW!

AFL · Post by **AFL** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:41 pm

Paradigm X wrote:i thought it was unfair to vote for myself so never have. FWIW

I agree.
Just doesn't seem right.

relik · Post by **relik** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:10 pm

I've seen other comps done where there is a limit on the tunes that make it to voting. IE: only the 10 best submitted tunes get voted on and the rest get the shitter. But then you have someone judging what is shit or not.

Like others said, I don't really see it as a contest. It's more of an exercise. I don't think there needs to be a limit on the tunes being voted on or the length of a tune. Yes it's time consuming to listen to them all, but you also have the ability to skip through songs rather than listening to a whole track. The only purpose of a winner is to supply the next sample pack. If people are too lazy to listen or vote then so be it....most votes still has to do the next pack. There will always be lazy people who refuse to read the rules, so there is no way around that. I don't think track placement in the player is really an issue either because like I said you can skip through tracks and start at whatever track you want. I do think that once people start voting though that it is a problem because then they only listen to the tracks with the most votes. Perhaps if the results of the voting could be hidden until voting is over, you'd have fairer results.

And I'll admit it, I submitted the tying vote because I figured there wouldn't be many more votes and I'd rather have 2 people work on a sample pack than just 1.

Your Thoughts on DSF Sample Competitions?

Your Thoughts on DSF Sample Competitions?

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