So if I my master is clipping, do I...

dank · Post by **dank** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:29 am

Lower my individual track volumes, or is it alright to just lower the volume of my master output? In response to digital clipping of course...

legend4ry · Post by **legend4ry** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:08 am

I generally turn down individual tracks - or EQ peaks .. Don't touch the masters fader personally - Can't say if this is right or wrong though.

alpha3 · Post by **alpha3** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:47 am

As said, if your happy with the levels just take each individual track down by an even amount (3db for instance). The master needs to be at the 0db mark. This is to record the final mix using the full digital bit range available.

stapleface · Post by **stapleface** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:37 am

lowering channel levels means you leave more room for turning certain parts up if you have to

at my college they say not to touch the master fader during mixing.

macc · Post by **macc** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:55 am

http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.ph ... did=604197

legend4ry · Post by **legend4ry** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:51 am

Macc wrote:http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.ph ... did=604197

Macc - I think this emoticon defines what we should all do if we met you..

macc · Post by **macc** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:11 am

Don't be fuckin silly

Hopefully it makes sense though... if I can help any more then lemme know

slothrop · Post by **slothrop** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:05 pm

...would be more like it.

I tend to aim to get things at about the right level to start off with rather than messing around with the master fader (eg if your drums are peaking at 0dB from the word go then of course you're going to run out of headroom) but if I've got loads and loads of channels doing stuff and I've spent ages getting the levels balanced nicely then tweaking the master fader might be the lesser of two evils.

macc · Post by **macc** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:14 pm

Slothrop wrote:

...would be more like it.

Slothrop knows the truth

:doverhouse:

I tend to aim to get things at about the right level to start off with rather than messing around with the master fader (eg if your drums are peaking at 0dB from the word go then of course you're going to run out of headroom) but if I've got loads and loads of channels doing stuff and I've spent ages getting the levels balanced nicely then tweaking the master fader might be the lesser of two evils.

Nicely put

dank · Post by **dank** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:09 pm

Yeah it sounds pretty unanimous, I figured I should leave the master alone but wondered if there is a trade off in regards to sound quality. All good posts, thanks. Hahaha sorry about the thread title, I only made it through 3rd grade english...

slothrop · Post by **slothrop** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:17 am

dank wrote:Yeah it sounds pretty unanimous, I figured I should leave the master alone but wondered if there is a trade off in regards to sound quality.

Working in a DAW there's no tradeoff in terms of sound quality. People go on about gain structuring and sound quality because it is important if you're working with an analogue desk where processing introduces small amounts of noise, and it's desireable to minimize that, and people have a tendancy to hear things said about analogue desks and assume that they apply to DAWs without really thinking about it.

AFAICT the basic reason not to touch the master fader is so that when you look at a level meter on a mixer track, you immediately know whether that sound is munching loads of headroom or whether it's nicely punchy and cutting through the mix without needing to be amped up to the ceiling. If you start pushing the master fader around from the start then you'll look at a VU meter and think wow, it's peaking at -4dB, but depending on whether I've got the master fader at +2dB or -6dB that could mean anything...

martello · Post by **martello** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:20 pm

I have opposite "problem".

When I'm mixing, i have find that my last mixes are peaking under -12 and so

Too much headroom

Before bumping up the volume with limiter or compressor, I just increase each channel volume so, that the master channel peaks under -6...-3. Probably could just use limiter only...?

relik · Post by **relik** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:53 pm

I had a similar question with FL Studio. In FL, you don't want to touch the master volume. If you adjust it to say -2db, your entire track is going to be rendered at -2db and can still be squashed and clipping (just fits the whole track to -2db). You can assign a flat EQ to the master channel and lower the volume of that to make it so your master channel isn't hot, but it's always better to just mix quiet and turn your individual inserts down accordingly. I thought maybe assigning multiple PEQ2s to get the master volume down might introduce some sound artifacts or weird software logic, but I haven't been able to detect any difference in sound quality if you mix the inserts quiet or if you mixed them loud and adjust the volume of a flat EQ on the master channel to stop clipping. Better practice to mix quiet though.

macc · Post by **macc** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:16 pm

alvin18 wrote:I have opposite "problem".

When I'm mixing, i have find that my last mixes are peaking under -12 and so Too much headroom Before bumping up the volume with limiter or compressor, I just increase each channel volume so, that the master channel peaks under -6...-3. Probably could just use limiter only...?

Why bother with a limiter unless you need to do any limiting? Just turn it up if you feel you must.

But as described in the link I put earlier, there's really not any problem at all mixing to peak at -12. Ok, so it is a little on the low side, but it is still using ~22 bits of 24 = 136dB dynamic range, so...

macc · Post by **macc** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:18 pm

relik wrote:I had a similar question with FL Studio. In FL, you don't want to touch the master volume. If you adjust it to say -2db, your entire track is going to be rendered at -2db and can still be squashed and clipping (just fits the whole track to -2db).

I don't think that's true, though I don't use FL. AFAIK it works at 32-bit floating point internally, so turning it down by 2dB will get you headroom back and render an unclipped result not a flattened-but-quieter wave.

Brisance · Post by **Brisance** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:30 pm

relik wrote:. You can assign a flat EQ to the master channel and lower the volume of that to make it so your master channel isn't hot

Fruity balance is much more lighter on your PC, I use it all the time, mainly for volume automations on different channels, so I can use the mixer's faders for mixing.

relik · Post by **relik** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:07 pm

Macc wrote: I don't think that's true, though I don't use FL. AFAIK it works at 32-bit floating point internally, so turning it down by 2dB will get you headroom back and render an unclipped result not a flattened-but-quieter wave.

You can get headroom by turning the master channel down in FL, but I'm pretty sure it then limits the loudness of your entire track to however much you turn it down. Don't know the exact terminology and everything, but I've inadvertently rendered tracks with the master channel down say -2db and the entire track was then limited to -2db (looking at it's waveform in Audition). Could have been something else I had in my effects chain, but I don't think so. If my master is too hot, i'll just turn the loudest insert down and adjust the rest the same amount of db or if I'm lazy, just throw a flat eq on the master and turn that down instead of the actual master fader.

relik · Post by **relik** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:09 pm

Brisance wrote: Fruity balance is much more lighter on your PC

Think I'll use that from now on. Always forget about the small old plugins and volume is all I really need to get hots down.

macc · Post by **macc** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:18 pm

relik wrote: You can get headroom by turning the master channel down in FL, but I'm pretty sure it then limits the loudness of your entire track to however much you turn it down.

Hmm... I'd suggest you do some proper tests - That shouldn't be the case as it works at floating point. Unless you have a plugin clipping internally etc as you say. Seriously, do some tests

if I'm lazy, just throw a flat eq on the master and turn that down instead of the actual master fader.

But there's no reason it should be any different at all

Hmm... something smells fishy to me!

relik · Post by **relik** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:48 pm

Macc wrote: But there's no reason it should be any different at all Hmm... something smells fishy to me!

You are right. I did a couple of quick tests with adjusting the master volume and it wasn't doing any limiting like I thought. Must have been a plugin or something else on the project I was thinking of because I swear when I would turn the master fader down it was limiting it. Not sure what project it was either to go back and test it, so I'll just pass it off as me being confused

So if I my master is clipping, do I...

So if I my master is clipping, do I...

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