New Directions: 2step, Minimal and Beyond...

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elgato
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Post by elgato » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 am

Kazuo wrote:i mean it's really obvious that i4/4 is just the "natural" signature for most stuff.. when you listen to some of the vsnares stuff in 7/4 or even 14/15 and similar weird stuff it's like an unnatural, un-groovy limitation to the tunes. there are some 7/8ers or 5/4ers that work pretty well but when a producer starts doing a tune based on the idea "i'm gonna use irregular time signatures" it will turn out shit in most cases.
i dont agree with this. i dont think that its 'natural', i think its a matter of environmental experience. play most music in a 4/4 time sig to someone immersed in arabic, hindustani or a lot of african music and they'll probably find it repetitive and boring. in many senses other time signatures or more flexible approaches to timekeeping breed a greater sense of fluidity and motion.

not saying dance music should strive for this, at all, just that notions of 'nature' are in my opinion misguided

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Post by spaceboy » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:20 am

actually i've seen alot of impromptu indian village tribal musicians go nuts to 4/4 stuff and dnb...

started playing along with the records...using their own instruments

now that was sweet.
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Post by kazuo » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:34 pm

mh of course there are also other time signatures that work well in some tunes but i think the reason why the 4/4 is so common is that it is symmetric and regular, which is not always a limitation. it also gives the listener the possibility to orient in more complex rhythmic patterns and thereby allows greater musical possibilities. i think when you have an irregular time signature its harder to understand heavily syncopated or layered patterns.

however... musics got to hit you and get you excited. no matter what time signature ;)

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Post by narcossist » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:21 pm

subframe wrote:
One thing I miss in a lot of tunes these days is the exploration of space. I don't mean just a big ol' reverb on the snare. I mean experimenting with how non-standard mixing and textural layering can create new and unexpected sonic spaces for a tune. Almost to the point where it moves beyond writing a song into sound-design territory. The more minimal tunes obviously do this more, because they have to, but it's perhaps less of a conscious focus than it 'used to be'.
really agree with this. i don't think it necesarily means the music has to bleak or shoe-gazer, just that each track be given a bit more time n effort - take "mud" for example: heavy as fuck but layered with sublime echos/delays and voices/sirens/ambience almost so subtle you don't notice em if you don't listen for them. It would still be killer without them in but its next level imo because of these and the way the lfo changes frequency or shape every 16 and the filters move and etc etc etc etc... the production just has pure focus.

said something similar in another thread and someone pointed out it was easy to spot these things as a producer, but conciously or subconciously its changes that keep yr attention when listening however subtle they are.
i'm probably bein a chinstroker but fuck it, thats my two cents, i like tunes i can listen to and hear bits i haven't noticed before rather than ones that get boring after 5 listens. :)

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Post by metalboxproducts » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:56 pm

narcossist wrote:
subframe wrote:
One thing I miss in a lot of tunes these days is the exploration of space. I don't mean just a big ol' reverb on the snare. I mean experimenting with how non-standard mixing and textural layering can create new and unexpected sonic spaces for a tune. Almost to the point where it moves beyond writing a song into sound-design territory. The more minimal tunes obviously do this more, because they have to, but it's perhaps less of a conscious focus than it 'used to be'.
really agree with this. i don't think it necesarily means the music has to bleak or shoe-gazer, just that each track be given a bit more time n effort - take "mud" for example: heavy as fuck but layered with sublime echos/delays and voices/sirens/ambience almost so subtle you don't notice em if you don't listen for them. It would still be killer without them in but its next level imo because of these and the way the lfo changes frequency or shape every 16 and the filters move and etc etc etc etc... the production just has pure focus.

said something similar in another thread and someone pointed out it was easy to spot these things as a producer, but conciously or subconciously its changes that keep yr attention when listening however subtle they are.
i'm probably bein a chinstroker but fuck it, thats my two cents, i like tunes i can listen to and hear bits i haven't noticed before rather than ones that get boring after 5 listens. :)
It was me who said that :lol:
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Post by threnody » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:41 pm

Interesting thread....until that time signatures stuff came in, do some research or make something amazing to change western music.

As for the state of dubstep there is plenty diversity...toasty, distance, burial, kode 9, mala to name the big boys. Combat recording have been putting out some different stuff consistantly....that latest Scanone ep is like nothing else about.

Some newer people are pushing different sounds too, Sully is large, Shonky twists it up and metalbox has put his own spin on a more'typical' dubstep sound with plenty switches and edits. Other producers are coming through...Vaccine and TRG spring to mind and both are doing something different.

Dubstep will always have core elements and will evolve. Halfstep is a major part of the sound...just as breakstep was a few years back...i think that these are core elements....put a kick on each beat of the bar and it's going to sound like house or nu skool breaks or whatever. People should always experiment though and this is often missing from some of the huge amounts of 320s i've picked up on this board.

Going back to the old dubplate.net days i remember checking every day to see what new tracks were up on the dubplates section and often getting excited by them but it was a handful of producers with their own spin on the genre and their own sound....now there is an audience to listen and replicate so obviously some kind of copying will take place....however remember that the original batch of producers brought their own sound and this is something newer producers may not have found yet...they will surely develop just as everyone does and come across something new as they develop their skills.

I personally blame reason for a lot of evils in electronic music....exactly how many bass sounds can you get out the subtractor? I reckon this is the most used software by the new producers and with such a limited number of instruments and effects (and of course limited knowledge on how to use them) things will sound samey...on the flipside artists like Luke Envoy know how to take the software and use it in new ways....goes back to originality.....

The point on quality control is also important as many people are letting half finished and half baked tunes go as 320s when they would be best off on the harddrive of a virus laden machine...however it is simple...don't download them i guess! There was an interestin thread in the production forum about how long it takes people to write a tune and people were saying they bang out 10 a day or have them finished in 24 hours....this surely must be destructive...how can you be original 10 times a day or give a tune time to evolve and develop in 24 hours. I'm sure this is how music by numbers occurs and how people are banging out beat followed by beat with the same ideas...even if you bin 99% of what you cram into the hours can the 1% really have enough time to develop and be original.....i'm sure a lot of producers could knock up a halfstep beat, wobble bass and ragga vox in an hour but then this is dubstep by formula.

So let the innovators break though (as i'm sure they will) and let the established names develop, suprise and redefine. Try new software, new VSTs, new effects....be influenced from outside as well as in and develop a polished and original sound before posting 320s....minimal, maximal, techno, wobble, halfstep, 4x4, original, ragga, evil, glitch, whatever....if it sounds like you and not the next man then i'm sure it will fall on gratefully receiving ears.
Last edited by threnody on Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by eleventigers » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:56 pm

threnody wrote:Interesting thread....until that time signatures stuff came in, do some research or make something amazing to change western music.
sorry about that .... :>

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Post by metalboxproducts » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:31 am

threnody wrote:Interesting thread....until that time signatures stuff came in, do some research or make something amazing to change western music.

As for the state of dubstep there is plenty diversity...toasty, distance, burial, kode 9, mala to name the big boys. Combat recording have been putting out some different stuff consistantly....that latest Scanone ep is like nothing else about.

Some newer people are pushing different sounds too, Sully is large, Shonky twists it up and metalbox has put his own spin on a more'typical' dubstep sound with plenty switches and edits. Other producers are coming through...Vaccine and TRG spring to mind and both are doing something different.

Dubstep will always have core elements and will evolve. Halfstep is a major part of the sound...just as breakstep was a few years back...i think that these are core elements....put a kick on each beat of the bar and it's going to sound like house or nu skool breaks or whatever. People should always experiment though and this is often missing from some of the huge amounts of 320s i've picked up on this board.

Going back to the old dubplate.net days i remember checking every day to see what new tracks were up on the dubplates section and often getting excited by them but it was a handful of producers with their own spin on the genre and their own sound....now there is an audience to listen and replicate so obviously some kind of copying will take place....however remember that the original batch of producers brought their own sound and this is something newer producers may not have found yet...they will surely develop just as everyone does and come across something new as they develop their skills.

I personally blame reason for a lot of evils in electronic music....exactly how many bass sounds can you get out the subtractor? I reckon this is the most used software by the new producers and with such a limited number of instruments and effects (and of course limited knowledge on how to use them) things will sound samey...on the flipside artists like Luke Envoy know how to take the software and use it in new ways....goes back to originality.....

The point on quality control is also important as many people are letting half finished and half baked tunes go as 320s when they would be best off on the harddrive of a virus laden machine...however it is simple...don't download them i guess! There was an interestin thread in the production forum about how long it takes people to write a tune and people were saying they bang out 10 a day or have them finished in 24 hours....this surely must be destructive...how can you be original 10 times a day or give a tune time to evolve and develop in 24 hours. I'm sure this is how music by numbers occurs and how people are banging out beat followed by beat with the same ideas...even if you bin 99% of what you cram into the hours can the 1% really have enough time to develop and be original.....i'm sure a lot of producers could knock up a halfstep beat, wobble bass and ragga vox in an hour but then this is dubstep by formula.

So let the innovators break though (as i'm sure they will) and let the established names develop, suprise and redefine. Try new software, new VSTs, new effects....be influenced from outside as well as in and develop a polished and original sound before posting 320s....minimal, maximal, techno, wobble, halfstep, 4x4, original, ragga, evil, glitch, whatever....if it sounds like you and not the next man then i'm sure it will fall on gratefully receiving ears.
LARGENESS..Great response.
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shonky
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Post by shonky » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:19 pm

Yeah, good response T.

If it's been done once why do it again. The thing I liked about early dubstep was that it was really varied (check out the Horsepower albums). If it gets to be everyone's doing the same thing it just gets tired real quick. Bring in whatever influences you can and see where it goes from there.
Hmm....

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Post by richb » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:24 pm

[quote="threnody"]Interesting thread....

What he said. Big up.

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Post by stormfield » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:29 pm

well spoken Threnody

Personally I find it's nice when people get inspired by a sound, then try to make something similar and get it partly or fully wrong... creating something interesting in the process...

It's also good to not have creativity be limited by group or peer "approval"... it means you can genuinely get bored of stuff quicker and keep making or looking for stuff that interests you...




.. if the day job weren't so tight on net surfing, I'd write more ... :)

excellent thread!
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kazuo
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Post by kazuo » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:40 pm

interesting post. especially because i belong to the "newcomers" you mentioned (got into dubstep about 1-1,5 months ago)

but to some degree it's normal to imitate. music (to me) means, trying to get the sound i want. the more i try to get the creative process in a certain direction the less i achieve.
consciously imitating an existing style can be such a limitation. but when i'm totally "flashed" by a style or even a single tune, i just end up going in that direction. as said above, often the results seem more individual to others than the musician may think :wink:

and the greatest, groundbreaking musicians started imitating their idols ;)
thats just part of the development of music, you incorporate the history of music into your own style!

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Post by shonky » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:11 am

^^^ Just make sure that your influences are varied though, eh

Stormfield's point's really good too, sometimes you find your own style whilst failing to imitate tunes you like. Nothing like a happy accident to keep things interesting :D
Hmm....

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Post by boomnoise » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:54 am

re stormfield's point. i blogged something interesting on this matter.

link below for those who haven't seen it.

http://boomnoise.blogspot.com/2006/11/n ... onals.html

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Post by djdinyr » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:29 am

Great thread. Thanks for getting it started boomnoise. As someone pretty new to production (since 2004) and dubstep (since 2005), this has given me a lot to think about. I agree that keeping the genre open to different interpretations and experimentation is a worthy goal. Hopefully it will happen, but as can be seen with many styles, things start out open but end up narrow after awhile. Maybe it will take folks like boomnoise kicking us in the butt once in awhile.

I'm still mostly working on my sound at home, but manage to do live p.a. sets once in a while. Here's a working dubstep demo that I think showcases a broad variety of styles--some halfstep wobblers, some 2-step rollers, and some dubby breakstep (or maybe you can give it some other labels??): Dub for peace.
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