WHO HERE THINKS WOMEN ARE EQUAL?

[magma]

so whats the difference between a feminist argument and a wholesale argument for human equality?

in that respect feminism is a facet of a wider argument, like the point i was making before about behaviour in clubs

I agree with this in sentiment, but I lean to thinking the struggle for universal human equality is so big that it occasionally needs breaking down into manageable chunks that can be addressed individually... different sections of society have different attitudes to each facet of the debate (race, sex, class, sexuality etc) and so more often than not you need to be able to talk about "Racial Equality" or "Gender Equality" individually... the same way as we approach most things, really.

I also have concerns that no matter how far we've come in our area of the world, stopping or subverting the "Feminism" meme could have knock-ons for the rest of humanity. As we globalise our media and social interactions, it's evermore important for women's contributions, rights and inherent value to be trumpeted... lots of countries haven't even made it to their Pankhurst moment yet, so even whilst we might be far enough into our national conversation to now roll things like feminism, racism and homophobia it into the "general human struggle", as a purely human cause, "feminism" is very much still relevant and should stay part of the conversation.

I actually think we have a lot to discuss regarding gender roles in our society, but that's a personal opinion... I'm not sure it's a regulation thing a lot of the time, putting people in PC straight-jacket only masks the problem and forces misogyny into private (most rapes and instances of domestic violence are never reported)... it's about instilling values in children so that they understand the true value of being a human female and the importance of mutual empathy in human interactions. I actually think that's the most difficult bit of the struggle... forcing equal pay or winning voting rights is about chaining yourself to railings, voting on legislation and signing forms, but the job isn't truly finished until you've changed the personal attitudes of parents, teachers, business leaders, churches and, well, most of everyone else too... if the racial equality situation is anything to go by, it takes generations of trickle-down education, not just acts of Parliament... all the laws in the world don't stop a child believing that their family's opinions are the most "normal" and "correct" in the world.

If showing off my cock would be as lucrative, I'd do it too.

Me too, but I'd also hate to feel like I had no other option. I'm sure I've mentioned that my best mate from secondary school did porn for a bit... made a lot of money doing not many hours, had a ridiculously good time and then gave up to get married and have a kid... it was perfect for her, but it takes a certain brain to be able to get through several brand new sexual partners a day without having some sort of breakdown. I'd say legalising prostitution was a pretty relevant feminist issue too... it will happen whatever the laws are, so it must be safe.



This has been a great thread. Noam, you're doing a superb job of finding a debate on a sensitive issue whilst remaining absolutely respectable in your opinion. Nice work.

[noam]

enjoyed the debate too nice one Magma

[kay]

I think the key to bringing about equality for women is the same key for bringing about equality for all segments of humanity. The apparent arenas may seem different (gender, sexuality, race, wealth, etc) but the the basic issues all have commonalities. From that point of view, I think that a holistic approach, ie solving the root issues (eg humanity's prevalent desire to differentiating certain groups of people, possessitivity) will be a more effective way of dealing with all of these issues once and for all. Prioritisation of one of these issues over another may only be serving to prolong the fight for equality across all segments of humanity, because while you're fixing one issue, another issue may take root once again, ad nauseum. The entire social nature of humanity needs to change.

[LACE]

so whats the difference between a feminist argument and a wholesale argument for human equality?

feminist arguments have ingrained in them a position of seniority for a supposed female inclination - those things mainly being implicitly and explicitly - the antithesis to apparent male archetypes in terms of human behaviour, societal/sociological roles and dominant concepts/ideologies in culture, politics, business etc. etc.

the rest comes SPECIFICALLY into question with regards to regulatory bodies controlling aspects of societies every day functions.

in that respect feminism is a facet of a wider argument, like the point i was making before about behaviour in clubs

LIKE; women being paid less to do the same job; women not being able to achieve as easily the same roles in the workplace as men; women being portrayed and exploited in social and media platforms as objectified beings.

there are more but i cba thinkin em up right now

but... the rest, is just simple ethics and human decency - even just politeness - that has to apply to all people, and not single out women as victims more than men, based on judgemental non-empirical assumptions about metaphysical concepts to do with human behaviour

what im saying here in short is lay out your terms, cos if you're talking about the way everyone deserves to be treated (100% inclusively) or the way women deserve to be treated by men, and by women separately,and vice versa - it needs to be made explicitly clear.

Well the difference is, feminism implies not only general inequality, but the active mistreatment, underestimation of and disadvantage of the "feminine" in particular. This includes men who act "feminine", activities and practices that are considered "feminine" having children, things like cooking and cleaning and feeding, nature and nurturing, mother earth vs God the bodiless father etc. (That's more theory but just stay with me).It acknowledges that women and those who are "feminine" in some ways suffer and are treated in ways that those who are considered masculine are not, and recognizing that it is a problem. Feminism means recognizing that women aren't a tiny subgroup, but half of the world.

To be more specific, when feminists originally worked to advocate for things like paid maternity leave, I don't know if that's necessarily just about "equality" with men as much as it is about allowing women to live freely chosen and autonomous lives, and in my honest opinion, nothing is more threatening to anti-feminist men than female autonomy, because to them, it really does take something away from them. It takes away their ability to control others. Feminism is women seeking their autonomy, and about changing our view of subjectivity from an externally oriented point of view that can treat other humans as objects to a self-controlled autonomy that belongs to all of us. I guess that is equality.

feminist arguments have ingrained in them a position of seniority for a supposed female inclination

It's not purely a raising up of the disadvantaged to the level of the all powerful, but rather a collapse of the system in itself, in which there'd be no one left to control. Also, this would need to happen with race and class too of course, but those are somewhat different, yet relevant battles, but it's an intersectional movement at it's core so it works to end those issues as well. I see where you're getting at noam and sometimes I do feel that equality is a strange word because the standard for autonomous living hasn't even been set yet. And I can see how it gets tricky when it comes down to global feminist issues because then the question becomes ''equal to what?'' Since that kind of thinking obviously re inforces a problematic standard, and as long as we're living in the culture we live in now, where masculinity is sanctioned to oppress women's bodies and minds, then being equal to THAT kind of power..seems like a dangerous road to go down.

[wub]

so whats the difference between a feminist argument and a wholesale argument for human equality?

feminist arguments have ingrained in them a position of seniority for a supposed female inclination - those things mainly being implicitly and explicitly - the antithesis to apparent male archetypes in terms of human behaviour, societal/sociological roles and dominant concepts/ideologies in culture, politics, business etc. etc.

the rest comes SPECIFICALLY into question with regards to regulatory bodies controlling aspects of societies every day functions.

in that respect feminism is a facet of a wider argument, like the point i was making before about behaviour in clubs

LIKE; women being paid less to do the same job; women not being able to achieve as easily the same roles in the workplace as men; women being portrayed and exploited in social and media platforms as objectified beings.

there are more but i cba thinkin em up right now

but... the rest, is just simple ethics and human decency - even just politeness - that has to apply to all people, and not single out women as victims more than men, based on judgemental non-empirical assumptions about metaphysical concepts to do with human behaviour

what im saying here in short is lay out your terms, cos if you're talking about the way everyone deserves to be treated (100% inclusively) or the way women deserve to be treated by men, and by women separately,and vice versa - it needs to be made explicitly clear.

Well the difference is, feminism implies not only general inequality, but the active mistreatment, underestimation of and disadvantage of the "feminine" in particular. This includes men who act "feminine", activities and practices that are considered "feminine" having children, things like cooking and cleaning and feeding, nature and nurturing, mother earth vs God the bodiless father etc. (That's more theory but just stay with me).It acknowledges that women and those who are "feminine" in some ways suffer and are treated in ways that those who are considered masculine are not, and recognizing that it is a problem. Feminism means recognizing that women aren't a tiny subgroup, but half of the world.

To be more specific, when feminists originally worked to advocate for things like paid maternity leave, I don't know if that's necessarily just about "equality" with men as much as it is about allowing women to live freely chosen and autonomous lives, and in my honest opinion, nothing is more threatening to anti-feminist men than female autonomy, because to them, it really does take something away from them. It takes away their ability to control others. Feminism is women seeking their autonomy, and about changing our view of subjectivity from an externally oriented point of view that can treat other humans as objects to a self-controlled autonomy that belongs to all of us. I guess that is equality.

feminist arguments have ingrained in them a position of seniority for a supposed female inclination

It's not purely a raising up of the disadvantaged to the level of the all powerful, but rather a collapse of the system in itself, in which there'd be no one left to control. Also, this would need to happen with race and class too of course, but those are somewhat different, yet relevant battles, but it's an intersectional movement at it's core so it works to end those issues as well. I see where you're getting at noam and sometimes I do feel that equality is a strange word because the standard for autonomous living hasn't even been set yet. And I can see how it gets tricky when it comes down to global feminist issues because then the question becomes ''equal to what?'' Since that kind of thinking obviously re inforces a problematic standard, and as long as we're living in the culture we live in now, where masculinity is sanctioned to oppress women's bodies and minds, then being equal to THAT kind of power..seems like a dangerous road to go down.

Thanks, I'd love a sandwich right about now.

[LACE]

get outta here wub

[magma]

Well the difference is, feminism implies not only general inequality, but the active mistreatment, underestimation of and disadvantage of the "feminine" in particular. This includes men who act "feminine", activities and practices that are considered "feminine" having children, things like cooking and cleaning and feeding, nature and nurturing, mother earth vs God the bodiless father etc.

Yes.

nothing is more threatening to anti-feminist men than female autonomy

YES.

The physiological differences between men and women, especially the fact that women are forced by nature to be the child-bearers means that their struggle is more complicated than simply chasing equal rights. They need some unique rights before they can be truly autonomous, too. I work in an environment where most women are completely unofficially left to tred-water as soon as they show an interest in having kids and so whilst women are fairly well represented at Graduate sort of age and grade, the number of women thins more and more as you move up the company. Sure, some manage to juggle, especially if they're well-paid enough to cover their childcare... but I struggle to understand why we still have so few creche facilities in our workplaces. My old office had a relatively expensive, staffed gym in the basement, a Cafe Nero franchise, take-away meals at dinner time and a Dry Cleaning service... but no option for childcare.

It's as if accepting "equality" requires ultimately sacrificing part of your humanity in order to become androgenous... androgeny doesn't represent gender equality anymore than the idea of Don't Ask Don't Tell or abstinence represents equality for gays... it's a stopgap that people have to put up with because the battle hasn't been properly won yet.

[bela]

LACE and magma, bringing the FIRE


love you guys right now

[noam]

Well the difference is, feminism implies not only general inequality, but the active mistreatment, underestimation of and disadvantage of the "feminine" in particular. This includes men who act "feminine", activities and practices that are considered "feminine" having children, things like cooking and cleaning and feeding, nature and nurturing, mother earth vs God the bodiless father etc.

Yes.

nothing is more threatening to anti-feminist men than female autonomy

YES.

The physiological differences between men and women, especially the fact that women are forced by nature to be the child-bearers means that their struggle is more complicated than simply chasing equal rights. They need some unique rights before they can be truly autonomous, too. I work in an environment where most women are completely unofficially left to tred-water as soon as they show an interest in having kids and so whilst women are fairly well represented at Graduate sort of age and grade, the number of women thins more and more as you move up the company. Sure, some manage to juggle, especially if they're well-paid enough to cover their childcare... but I struggle to understand why we still have so few creche facilities in our workplaces. My old office had a relatively expensive, staffed gym in the basement, a Cafe Nero franchise, take-away meals at dinner time and a Dry Cleaning service... but no option for childcare.

It's as if accepting "equality" requires ultimately sacrificing part of your humanity in order to become androgenous... androgeny doesn't represent gender equality anymore than the idea of Don't Ask Don't Tell or abstinence represents equality for gays... it's a stopgap that people have to put up with because the battle hasn't been properly won yet.

i still dont see what you've covered here that i didn't deal with more concisely in my earlier posts?

i) i AGREE entirely with what i believe is the main point Magma raised, whereby a [not entirely wholesale] change in societal attitude towards certain of its members is needed in order to balance the scales somewhat, and this needs to begin and can only be effective by beginning at home.

ii) Equality doesn't require you to carpet-bomb individuality or natural inequality

iii) Power/Control/Dominance are NOT specifically masculine qualities, and not uniquely 'bad' or negative. This is important and where i believe my main point of contention with Feminism lies; at core, Feminism attributes these qualities a specifically Masculine context. If we're dealing with Equality, the slate doesn't have to be drawn clean in the contexts of all the issues presented above (that i have not once questioned, and advocate and condone) - but the conceptual idea's of Feminity as being intrinsically 'positive' and Masculinity as being instrinsically 'negative' are as divisive as they are damaging.

[garethom]

Thread has inspired me to jump in front of a horse, big up and BRB

[magma]

Well the difference is, feminism implies not only general inequality, but the active mistreatment, underestimation of and disadvantage of the "feminine" in particular. This includes men who act "feminine", activities and practices that are considered "feminine" having children, things like cooking and cleaning and feeding, nature and nurturing, mother earth vs God the bodiless father etc.

Yes.

nothing is more threatening to anti-feminist men than female autonomy

YES.

The physiological differences between men and women, especially the fact that women are forced by nature to be the child-bearers means that their struggle is more complicated than simply chasing equal rights. They need some unique rights before they can be truly autonomous, too. I work in an environment where most women are completely unofficially left to tred-water as soon as they show an interest in having kids and so whilst women are fairly well represented at Graduate sort of age and grade, the number of women thins more and more as you move up the company. Sure, some manage to juggle, especially if they're well-paid enough to cover their childcare... but I struggle to understand why we still have so few creche facilities in our workplaces. My old office had a relatively expensive, staffed gym in the basement, a Cafe Nero franchise, take-away meals at dinner time and a Dry Cleaning service... but no option for childcare.

It's as if accepting "equality" requires ultimately sacrificing part of your humanity in order to become androgenous... androgeny doesn't represent gender equality anymore than the idea of Don't Ask Don't Tell or abstinence represents equality for gays... it's a stopgap that people have to put up with because the battle hasn't been properly won yet.

i still dont see what you've covered here that i didn't deal with more concisely in my earlier posts?

I was more adding on to LACE's post than aiming it at a point of yours, tbh. Childcare just strikes me as one of the areas where it's clear that equal rights don't necessarily suffice... certain parts of our society still need redesigning so that women can compete on an even playing ground with men.

i/ii) Yep, most definitely.

iii) I agree with the sentiment, especially that femininity and masculinity shouldn't be seen as "better or worse" than each other, but I don't believe we've reached the middle point yet. We still live in a society where people are surprised to get a female surgeon or pilot... "Ahh, hasn't she done well! Hope she doesn't crash!!". You get a much different reaction with men doing 'feminine' jobs... the male nurse or midwife, for example, isn't instantly seen to have "done well" for himself for excelling in an untraditional field... he's more likely to be assumed to be a failed doctor or have his sexuality called into question. Masculinity = positive for a woman, Femininity = negative for a man.

I think this is a symptom of society's slightly 'surface' interaction with feminism... it's not uncommon (as the trolly jokes in this thread and the journo's comments on Scuba's tweet show) for feminism to be painted as the 'lesbian cause' or for people to dismiss the conversation by assuming that active feminists in 2011 are just bitter about being left on the shelf or want an excuse to not pay attention to how they dress, or even want to do without men entirely... it's the same instinctive reaction that many people make towards most things they can't be bothered to think about "Soap dodgers outside St Pauls can't possibly represent me, I'll make a joke about them so I won't bother finding out what they're saying".

I can't think of any men I know that have unfairly been held back by feminism... , but I can think of a lot of women who struggle to balance being a women and a professional on a day to day basis... and a fair few who eventually gave up trying, married a rich man and consigned themselves to a life of gin, gossipy coffee mornings and daytime television.

[bright maroon]

I woke up this morning thinking about the whole masculine/feminine thing...

Feminism is constantly mixed up with equal rights...

Does a woman have the right to act masculine in order to ascend in a masculine world..
sure - I think we have that worked out..

but I personally hate competition...I'm a nurture person.
so I get really fucked up when I'm put into the arena.

[bright maroon]

Oh and from a different angle - Whenever people say stupid shit like...

Women - you now have the right to your own sexuality..

I get livid...I find it so base and offensive..

That's like telling a black person that they are talented enough to shine your shoes.

[noam]

I can't think of any men I know that have unfairly been held back by feminism...

true

[O Tumma Tum Ladin]

Thread has inspired me to jump in front of a horse, big up and BRB

inspired me to fire misogynistic tweets at scuba to see which he thinks are 'good'

[bright maroon]

Jenna Jameson..I salute you for being one of the finest shoe shiners to ever live...

but step aside for Tatiana Proskouriakoff...
she is responsible for cracking the second level of the mayan code...

..and she did it while working in the obscurity of the basement of U Penn.

[LACE]

iii) Power/Control/Dominance are NOT specifically masculine qualities, and not uniquely 'bad' or negative. This is important and where i believe my main point of contention with Feminism lies; at core, Feminism attributes these qualities a specifically Masculine context. If we're dealing with Equality, the slate doesn't have to be drawn clean in the contexts of all the issues presented above (that i have not once questioned, and advocate and condone) - but the conceptual idea's of Feminity as being intrinsically 'positive' and Masculinity as being instrinsically 'negative' are as divisive as they are damaging.

Feminism does NOT attribute these qualities to a masculine context. The goal is to deconstruct those binary gender roles as well. You're right and both interpretations continue to push sexist stereotypes inasmuch as we're dealing with masculine v. feminine dichotomies. But this just isn't the argument:

the conceptual idea's of Feminity as being intrinsically 'positive' and Masculinity as being intrinsically 'negative' are as divisive as they are damaging.

Masculinity is not seen as intrinsically negative nor are power, control and dominance seen as a masculine standard. That's not even the issue at hand really. But as I said before, aspects of life considered feminine are held at a significantly lower standard, it's obvious. The dichotomies about our gender remain, even though we both don't agree with the gender constructs. So in a sense when I discuss ''the feminine'', I'm just using existing symbols.

This was good :

Masculinity = positive for a woman, Femininity = negative for a man

[magma]

Jenna Jameson..I salute you for being one of the finest shoe shiners to ever live...

I hate to start another debate with you which is why I've ignored your posts so far, but this analogy of yours you keep coming back to is rather ridiculous and, frankly, quite insulting to a person I hold pretty dear.

There's nothing in a black man's physiology that makes him a more suitable shoe-shiner than anyone else. There is clearly something in a woman's physiology (in combination with men's psychology) that makes her a more likely prostitute or porn star than her male counterpart... the trick to equality isn't to frown upon women like Jenna Jameson in favour of lauding women like Nikki Giovanni, Marie Curie or Margaret Thatcher or to allow the same to happen in reverse, it's to make sure that all people are free to live out their lives (professional, sexual, academic or otherwise) how they want to.

The only girl I know personally that's worked in porn did it for absolutely the right reasons - nobody forced her; she was lucky enough to be born beautiful and happened to really like fucking... tbh, she was as suited to that role as my current best mate is suited to her role as a LASER scientist. My respect for both of them chasing their perfect job is utterly unquantifiable. As kay joked earlier, a lot of men would choose the sex industry if given the chance; just because it wouldn't be your choice doesn't make it wrong or worthy of your scorn. It's exactly the attitude that sex workers are a "lower" form of woman that causes so many of them to be enslaved by pimps and beaten or murdered by clients. Every single one of them has a brain as good as yours.

Of course, there's plenty of evidence to say that many women end up in the sex industry because of a lack of other choices, mental health issues, drug addictions and effective-slavery... those are the evils, not the profession itself or the sex acts involved. Sex is a massive part of being human, no other animal thinks about it as much as we do or spends so much of its time masturbating or having sex with infertile partners... those comfortable enough to have been making money out of it since we invented money and they always will... IMHO, it's about time we got used to ourselves and were grown up enough to make it a safe, respected job.

[kidshuffle]

I can't think of any men I know that have unfairly been held back by feminism...

me

[bright maroon]

Jenna Jameson..I salute you for being one of the finest shoe shiners to ever live...

magma - just accept my salute and move to the other side of the room

..with the bulk of the world



I'm really hoping I get left alone in the basement cleaning my jades...


I'm going to need an architectural square and some watercolors..you think you can swing that?

No - Well here's your diamond encrusted dildo - go get some..