o**k has been taken down

[ufo over easy]

My view on it:

I used to download every Dubstep tune that got put on Oink!...If I liked it enough I would buy it whether it was vinyl/CD/MP3.

The quality of mp3's, espeically those ripped by MP3 'scene' groups, was poor and they were useless for playing out or trying to do anything with them....on a nice system (even in some cars) they sounded shit. I saw this as no different from recording a track off myspace/virb or even a clip from Boomkat. I would use it for easy listening thats all

Dude, even the "scene" releases were mostly just taken directly from bleep/beatport/karmadownload/boomkat mp3 or whatever.

[jim]

Great, great site. Discovered so much from it.

Wonder if the cops are going to hunt me down for uploading Ornette Coleman free-funk albums!

[ufo over easy]

Wonder if the cops are going to hunt me down for uploading Ornette Coleman free-funk albums!

jesus christ, you terrorist

[jim]

Denardo is going to come round and start wailing on my head like a drum.

[tru_g]

My view on it:

I used to download every Dubstep tune that got put on Oink!...If I liked it enough I would buy it whether it was vinyl/CD/MP3.

The quality of mp3's, espeically those ripped by MP3 'scene' groups, was poor and they were useless for playing out or trying to do anything with them....on a nice system (even in some cars) they sounded shit. I saw this as no different from recording a track off myspace/virb or even a clip from Boomkat. I would use it for easy listening thats all

Dude, even the "scene" releases were mostly just taken directly from bleep/beatport/karmadownload/boomkat mp3 or whatever.

Yeah I know some of them were but a few of 'scene' groups are against webrips, the ones ripped from vinyl were usually at V2 which is 192kbps variable usually averaging at about 140/150. For real music lovers this shouldnt surfice anyway.

THis is what Drum & Bass ripping group -sour has to say, they maintain that they only ever rip vinyls

.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| |
| This release may contain copyrighted material, however SOUR guarantees |
| that this material was at least available to one person "on the street" |
| and that the possession of this material is in no way privileged. |
| |
| SOUR has been releasing good quality drum'n'bass, jungle & oldskool rips to |
| the internet drum'n'bass public since summer 1999. Originally a small |
| operation, we have now reached levels of international acclaim. |
| |
| SOUR is dedicated to both the availability and promotion of music to the |
| public, and our rips are intended to reflect these ideals. Specifically: |
| |
| . SOUR is dedicated to the promotion of new music that is currently |
| available to buy. If you like something you hear, you are obliged to |
| attempt to purchase an original copy. |
| |
| . SOUR is dedicated to the promotion of old music that may no longer be |
| available to buy. |
| |
| . SOUR is dedicated to the expansion and infiltration of drum'n'bass |
| worldwide! We provide a service where none is available, specifically in |
| many remote countries where traditional distributors can not afford to |
| target. Also, the availability of drum'n'bass in an easily accessible |
| form expands the potential for real world sales to people who may not |
| otherwise have considered buying drum'n'bass. |
| |
| . SOUR is dedicated to the expansion of the online and offline real world |
| scenes. With more listeners enjoying what they hear, clubs and venues can |
| only expect MORE people to attend events; DJ's can only expect MORE |
| people to pay to see THEM. |
| |
| By accident of today's current real world distribution arrangements, many |
| artists will find that SOUR releases IMPROVE their real world sales; |
| especially for items only on vinyl. This is the basis upon which SOUR |
| operates. |
| |
`---------------------------------------------------------/ |
...... /____________________|
: .
...:.. :
: :..........:
:....:
::

[djshiva]

Of course, some people will always leak it but thats going to happen no matter what you do. Youve got to accept it and try and maximise the appeal of paying. Add the odd free unreleased tune. Give em a jpeg cover. Make it preferable to dling for free.

seriously, yes! ultrablack did this with their latest release on dubkraft. offered a free tune dl unreleased tune if you showed proof of purchase offa digital-tunes. lovely idea.

Also release mp3 and vinyl at the same time, if you have to wait for an mp3 its no surprise people will dl a rip.

bang on. i buy a shit ton of digital tunes every payday, and would buy more if a) more labels would release digitally and b) if they got them out in a timely fashion. if i will DIE without it, i will buy the vinyl, but the in-between tunes...the ones that i would like to play but that are not THE BEST OF THE BEST, i just don't wanna buy them if they are not digital. THINK OF THE EXTRA SALES PEOPLE!!! just because you don't release digitally does not mean it's not gonna end up on the net. so just get around that and make some sales out of it at the same time.

p.s. ya gotta love the availability of WAVs on digital music buying sites these days too. that alone is reason enough to buy your music. fuck shitty rips when i can get WAV files direct from the masters. long live high speed internets!

[bashford]

Here's my take on all this...

I used to run a drum and bass label called Spore - and record for Reinforced Records under the name Search Engine.

I got into drum and bass through techno, electronica and rave - music I got into through pirate radio and mixtapes.

I believe we were the first label to release an MP3 only release and have it reviewed alongside the vinyl releases in magazines (Knowledge etc).

We released it for free - mainly because we didn't know how to go about charging for downloads, but that's not the point.

I can tell you that back in 1999 or 2000 (I forget the year) that release racked up something like 40,000 downloads in a month. Fuck knows who downloaded it cos as far as I know my label was still relatively unknown - we had major distribution issues with the vinyl and our sound was a bit too experimental (a lot too experimental) for the time. Sales of the 12" releases averaged about 1000 and as it was a P&D deal with a distributor I saw no money whatsoever.

The MP3 releases were more experimental than our vinyl output too - we had to tone it down a little to ensure sales, both on Reinforced and our own label. The amount of times I heard Mark at Reinforced tell us "I'm feeling it - but It just won't sell"

We were living on the breadline whilst making music. Getting a plate cut (at Transition funnily enough) was a big fucking deal. We were totally in it - every day was spent in the studio. The problem with this is that we were only really listening to Drum & Bass, something I think the scene in those days was guilty of - self referential music inevitably ends up stagnant and boring.

I knew then that something had to change. Not sure what - but I could see something big was happening. It was frightening. If there were that many people prepared to download our music why could we only shift 1000 copies of a 12" (if that)? Quite simply people generally don't want vinyl and are intimidated by going into specialist shops to buy music.

My entire recording studio was stolen in 2001 forcing a massive change of career. Luckily I had learned HTML doing the website for the label and there was lots of jobs going in New Media.

Cut to 2007. I don't make music any more. I haven't done for years. I'm still working in New Media and I've managed to attain a fairly senior position at an agency I really respect. I am aching to start making music again because I feel inspired by everything I'm hearing.

Dubstep is like someone took the blueprint for music I had in my head and made it real. Nothing has grabbed me like this in years (since Drum & Bass actually)

I listen to music all day, every day. My headphones rarely leave my head while I'm coding or writing documentation.

I had an account on Oink - and I admit I downloaded a fair bit of Dubstep. If I ever shared it I shared it with friends I knew made music and people I knew that write about music, but that's not the point. I've been shouting about Dubstep to anyone that was prepared to listen. I got people to come with me to FWD and other dubstep nights. People that had no idea what to expect. People that are now well and truly hooked on dubstep. People that are now telling other people about it - some through quite large magazines.

Oink helped fuel my enthusiasm. Just like those mixtapes and pirate radio stations did when I was young. You don't hear people complaining that pirate radio stations don't pay PRS do you? What do the artists get out of pirate radio? DJs get loads of benefits through bookings but the artist? nah mate. Unless they start DJing or putting on nights themselves. There's people on here saying "PIRACY IS BAD ps. download my mixtape", and that makes me laugh.

Oink also exposed me to more music than I could ever imagine. I exploerd obscure 60s psychedelia, post rock, folk, hard to find techno, ambient, electro, classical music, world music and of course old reggae, dancehall and dub.

I am taking steps to start producing again - and I will release music in the near future. The beauty of it is that I have no expectations with regard to making money. I'm not relying on it for my income. I can make the music I want to make and not have to tone it down so that it sells. If - and if something becomes popular I can release it as a 12" so that DJs can play it but I know that average joe has no interest in vinyl so I don't care if they get it for free.

I'll probably have a donation thing on my website I suppose so that if people feel they would like to support me they can do something but again, I'm not expecting anything. I'm not going to invest anything apart from time into promoting my music so it's no big deal if I see no return. After all I love making music and I love the fact that people are listening to it.

Music is free - it's sound. It's in the air. If you pay for something you should be paying for the medium it's stored on. Vinyl costs a packet to manufacture so I will definitely charge for that to recoup the cost - but MP3? It costs nothing to make an MP3. I don't even have to buy DAT tapes or blank CDs anymore.

I think that Oink has done wonders for the scene in ways that people are failing to see. I can only speak for myself in saying it's exposed me to a wide variety of music and allowed me to keep up with a scene I love. I reckon lots of other artists will be able to say the same thing. It's like I've been working in the best record shop in the world for the last two years. There's no other way I would have been exposed to as much music as I have been and this is going to be blatantly obvious in the music I make.

Artists are no worse off than they ever were really - they just need to change their attitudes and approaches. If you're not attempting to make money from your music (or make money for others - as is the case most often) it takes a massive burden off your shoulders. You can be as creative as you want. Take risks and push things further than you could if you were frightened about selling. If I really want to make money I'd start performing live, maybe set up a web shop to sell limited vinyl releases for DJs. Fuck distributors taking a massive cut and potentially lying to you about sales figures.

[relaks]

if you google around you'll see the hydra has sprouted a new head that will be up in less than a week, set up by tpb

[bashford]

Thanks - With all due respect, I'm not interested in discussion about what the next Oink or whatever will be. This is not a board on which to discuss such things.

I was putting my point across about piracy and the underground - how people (artists) probably need to adapt in order to survive and how that's not really a bad thing.

[relaks]

I wasn't responding to your post, although it may look like I was now that I see it.

And I do agree with a lot of what you say.

[thinking]

Thanks - With all due respect, I'm not interested in discussion about what the next Oink or whatever will be. This is not a board on which to discuss such things.

I was putting my point across about piracy and the underground - how people (artists) probably need to adapt in order to survive and how that's not really a bad thing.

really interesting 1st post man, thanks for that. btw used to love your stuff on RIVET/Spore, got quite a few releases - was esp into the stuff with Eniac.

The whole download/digital thing is just such a huge subject with so many issues, which change or vary in priority depending on what end of the scale you discuss wrt size of label/artist.

I've done a great deal of reading on the subject since Oink came down, and I'm trying both to re-establish my own position on filesharing, and pontificate on the future of mainstream/independent/underground music as well. Whilst my moral standpoint on filesharing may differ from many others, I'm certainly with everyone else who thinks that things will change significantly in the next few years - those who don't will be left behind...

[relaks]

certainly with everyone else who thinks that things will change significantly in the next few years - those who don't will be left behind...

QFT

[ramadanman]

not keen on the idea of bouncing down an mp3 from your fruity loops or whatever and then selling it without any proper mastering

[relaks]

I would download this.

[robotic]

not keen on the idea of bouncing down an mp3 from your fruity loops or whatever and then selling it without any proper mastering

never save to wav out of fruity, always record in realtime plzzz!!!

[pk-]

New York Magazine has a very interesting interview online with Nine Inch Nails' Trent Reznor and Saul Williams.

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/20 ... liams.html

The most interesting part is this:

"Trent: I'll admit I had an account there and frequented it quite often. At the end of the day, what made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store. Pretty much anything you could ever imagine, it was there, and it was there in the format you wanted. If OiNK cost anything, I would certainly have paid, but there isn't the equivalent of that in the retail space right now." ...

"People on those boards, they're grateful for the person that uploaded it — they're the hero. They're not stealing it because they're going to make money off of it; they're stealing it because they love the band. I'm not saying that I think OiNK is morally correct, but I do know that it existed because it filled a void of what people want."

not making a point, just thought some of you'd be interested

[efa]

@ Bashford: The most clued up post I've read on this forum for months, your time!

[nomorecomastep]

if you google around you'll see the hydra has sprouted a new head that will be up in less than a week, set up by tpb

You mean the one who is down with the "Ohoi" crew?

tried to visit the domain that I'd heard about, but it wasn't up yet, or had been taken down. we'll see.

[nomorecomastep]

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/9083/Trent ... +Store%27/


Looks like NIN's frontman did his music "stealing" at the same place as the rest of us, but didn't it actually make better music fans of us all?

Many of us are well aware of just how hip Trent Reznor is in terms of his love for music and how he puts his audience and his attention to the craft above all us - even profits.

It's been mentioned before how he thought it unsurprising that people steal music after observing "The absurd retail pricing of Year Zero in Australia. No wonder people steal music, " he said after observing his latest album was selling for a whopping $29.10 US in Australia.

"It's because we know you have a real core audience that will pay whatever it costs when you put something out - you know, true fans," was the response by a label rep when Reznor tried to find out why. "It's the pop stuff we have to discount to get people to buy."

He then later he encouraged people to steal his music, even openly admitting that he "steals" music too. "I steal music too, I'm not gonna say I don't," he said.

Well, it now seems as though we can say without a doubt that OiNK is where Mr. Reznor "stole" his tunes. It comes as no surprise really, I mean OiNK was like an old Tower Records on steroids, a place where music aficionados and noobs alike rubbed shoulders in search of something exciting to listen to.

As Wired recently observed , it was "...one of the strangest file-sharing services around, with rules both practical and puerile. Like a persnickety record store clerk, Oink's operators banned low-quality sound files, enforced strict usage rules and mandated that all users' avatars be 'cute' -- even taking pains to define exactly what made an avatar appropriately cuddly." So very true.

I don't remember the whole cuddly avatar requirement, but encoding quality was regulated with an iron fist And don't even get me started about share-ratios.

Now there's an interesting interview that Trent Reznor recently did with New York Magazine in which he mourns the loss of OiNK and what it represented.

"What do you think about OiNK being shut down?" he was asked.

He replies:

I'll admit I had an account there and frequented it quite often. At the end of the day, what made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store. Pretty much anything you could ever imagine, it was there, and it was there in the format you wanted. If OiNK cost anything, I would certainly have paid, but there isn't the equivalent of that in the retail space right now. iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc. Amazon has potential, but none of them get around the issue of pre-release leaks. And that's what's such a difficult puzzle at the moment. If your favorite band in the world has a leaked record out, do you listen to it or do you not listen to it? People on those boards, they're grateful for the person that uploaded it — they're the hero. They're not stealing it because they're going to make money off of it; they're stealing it because they love the band. I'm not saying that I think OiNK is morally correct, but I do know that it existed because it filled a void of what people want.

I think he hit the nail on the head. OiNK was a music lovers paradise, the "Pink Palace" in which all its citizens lived a communal life dedicated to the principle of a free flow of unadulterated quality music. It had everything from Richard Cheese to rare Beatles albums like "Live at the Star Club," to bootleg U2 concert recordings and just about every hip hop album imaginable. It was like the "Breakfast Club" of music that brought together the Jock, the Nerd, the Criminal, the Princess, and the Basketcase. Add to this Deadheads, Parrotheads, Rockers, Rappers, EMOs, and you get an idea of what OiNK was like.

Reznor's right, I mean record stores, if you can even find one these days, seem to be plastered with displays of the Billboard Top 10 and nothing else. If you're not into Mariah Carey, Jay-Z, Rhianna, Usher, or whatever flavor of the month, you may as well pack up and leave because there's no mechanism to even listen to or explore new music while your there. OiNK allowed you to do just that - discover new and exciting music.

At the risk of incrimination I freely admit that it's what made me an avid fan of Zero 7, Bent, Lemon Jelly, and even Royksopp, bands that just don't seem to be able to get exposure here in the United States using the traditional channels of radio and MTV. Without OiNK I never would've had a reason to buy any of their albums or attend any of their concerts. With Zero 7 alone I've been to 4 concerts and purchased 2 albums, "When It Falls" and "The Garden." I 've even bought some of their singer's solo acts like Sia and Mozez.

In some cases OiNK even allowed users to rediscover music they purchased long ago. I remember being able to find NIN's "Head Like A Hole" EP a while back. It has 2 dope remixes of songs from the "Petty Hate Machine" album: "Head Like a Hole(Copper)," and "Down In It(Shred)." I had originally purchased it in high school in like 1990, when the industrial scene was in high gear with bands like The Thrill Kill Kult, Ministry, and Front 242, but somehow it went missing a couple years later when I left home to join the military.

OiNK allowed me to effortlessly find it, crank it up again, and reminisce. It brought back teenage memories of driving around with my friends in my old, green, 66' Ford Galaxy through the backwater country roads of my small hometown Merced, and made me remember precisely why I became a fan of NIN in the first place - they just made darn good music. It even made me buy a copy of "Year Zero," though sadly for me it was after Reznor gave his fans a green light to steal it(Thanks a lot Trent.).

Let's just say that thanks to OiNK over the last 3 years I have listened to, purchased, and gone to the concerts of more music artists then I certainly would've otherwise. So I think it's particularly ironic that organizations like the IFPI and BPI that supposedly care about the health of the music industry and the financial well-being of artists have now succeeded in taking down a site that arguably benefited both of these concerns in their favor. How do they expect us to find new bands and artists when radio has become a homogenized Clear Channel mess, record stores are gone, and no real legal OiNK alternatives exist?

This is precisely why the record industry is dying a slow death. The proverbial gatekeepers of music have now so stifled the natural evolution of music distribution that the whole system is completely out of whack. It's now either legal or free, difficult or convenient.

In any event, Reznor has reminded me that it's really all about the music in the end, and that that's precisely what OiNK was all about - the music.

[__________]

not keen on the idea of bouncing down an mp3 from your fruity loops or whatever and then selling it without any proper mastering

never save to wav out of fruity, always record in realtime plzzz!!!

thank you for confirming this for me. i always thought bounced fruity wavs sounded shite...will be sure to record in future