london march 10th january

[doomtube]

I agree with that too!!

Here is a picture of all the 'middle classes' last saturday!!
I might be playing Devils advocate putting this up but i just think it shows that the march was not just about white middle class SUV drivers feeling smug...
I think the Guardian always gets a hard time in these situations, when it is (although being a bit preachy) on the whole a bloody good paper.

[tr0tsky]

The fact that I can see no less than 5 trade union banners says summant about the middle class, knitting-yougurt hypothesis.

[doomtube]

this person could be middle class though!!!
.... i have too much time on my hands....

[magma]

Fuck, I'm Middle Class, I come from rural Somerset originally.

Not that it means shit, it's where you're going, not where you're from that matters to borrow a cliché*.

Or as NOFX put it "Call me an asshole because I can take responsibility for what I've done, but not for who I am."

*check out my Middle Class accents. Yeah, fear me!

[doomtube]

Magma im more middle class than you!!

I have an M.A went to boarding school and used to live in winchester!!!!

that said my parents are working class and live in a council house now...
Thatcher has a lot to answer for...
i just got this emailed to me....

http://globaldayofaction.org/stopwar/im ... 170109.pdf

[tr0tsky]

I was working class, my parents are working class but I'm in the process of becoming middle class.

Fought injustice then, do it now, will still do it when I've got a pension and a morgage.

[tr0tsky]

Jewish MP, son of Holocaust survivors speaks out against Israel in House of Commons:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

[sang-froid]

I couldn't resist chipping-in from WAP:

Protests -do- achieve things. You only need to look at India, South Africa, America (when they lobbed the tea off the ships during a party in Boston or something).

Obviously there is the question of tactics and A-B marches. Does an angry, loud walk through central London on a cold January saturday leave the Israeli state fearful of it's life? I doubt it.

People realise this, and this is partialy why people it kicked off. People wanted to do something direct to stop the suffering, either by occupying the embassy, trying to hurt the profits of a key supporter of Zionism (re: the Starbucks being done over) or by making the biggest public order disturbance they can.

For me, it's important that people voice their anger, to come together in one place to show a united front. I am so angry at what's happening that there was no question about it, I wanted to walk the streets shouting at the representatives of the state that's carrying out this slaughter.

And guess what: people in Gaza see what's happening. If one child laying limbless, parentless, homeless on a hospital bed sees hundereds of thousands of people marching far far away and it gives him the strenght to recover and fight the brutal oppression than my job is done.

As for the middle class, did you conduct a socio-economic survey of those that attended?

Trotsky,

For heaven's sake, if you want your ideas to be taken seriously here, (which I presume that you do) it surely has to be incumbent upon you to check your facts. Howard Schultz is indeed a suporter of the state of Israel, as are countless others, inside and out of the business world, but to sloppily equate that to his being a supporter of 'Zionism' is a bit of a lazy leap. And to then take this as some justification for a handful of bozos smashing up a Starbucks is merely to compound factual error and stupid behaviour.

Please, be more rigorous. . .

Cheers

[spooKs]

Not to piss on anyones bonfire but do you really think getting a crew of angry british trustafarians to wave posters on sticks about outside an embassy is really going to stop whats going on? Or are you really doing it because it makes you think your doing your bit to stop what is happening?

To be honest that's some gratuitious, cynical, recycled bullshit. Can't believe you're serious.

[tr0tsky]

Howard Schultz is indeed a suporter of the state of Israel, as are countless others, inside and out of the business world, but to sloppily equate that to his being a supporter of 'Zionism' is a bit of a lazy leap.

I can accept criticism that I don't fully explain what I mean sometimes, or that I may use language that doesn't 100% convey the -precise- point I'm trying to make, out of sheer laziness. I can't contend that.

However, regarding the "support for the state of Israel" =/= supporter of Zionism, we need to look at the logical alternatives.

a) Supporting Israel in it's "struggle against terrorism" but not that Jews should have a homeland in the historic Palestine (the basic premise of Zionism)
b) Not supporting Israel in it's "struggle against terrorism" but not that Jews should have a homeland in the historic Palestine.
c) Not supporting Israel in it's "struggle against terrorism" and that Jews should not have a homeland in the historic Palestine.

Perhaps some of my formulations have been a little bit lazy, but I don't think that calling Schult's support of Israel "Zionism" is an example of this.

If my post doesn't make any sense it's because it's 3am.

[Pistonsbeneath]

Not to piss on anyones bonfire but do you really think getting a crew of angry british trustafarians to wave posters on sticks about outside an embassy is really going to stop whats going on? Or are you really doing it because it makes you think your doing your bit to stop what is happening?

To be honest that's some gratuitious, cynical, recycled bullshit. Can't believe you're serious.

i think cynicism takes many forms.....i do tend to agree with jackieboi personally but i do have genuine hope in many other ways and feel this is simply self congratulation....obviously you can never know whats in anyones head and of course i don't put everyone there in the same box but i do feel that protest in a country thats more than happy to let you protest seems less valid than protest in an environment where you're not allowed to...

and i think protesting with placards is more recycled than questioning it....

i just wish as was touched on earlier the section of these protests (im making the assumption attend) that me and others have a problem with would rather than fight causes half way around the world that they are more often than not in my experience not very well informed about actually look at tackling those problems closer to home....not to say they are as big as some problems elsewhere in the world of course and we should be aware of these also but surely charity begins at home?

i bet you many of these protesters label many members of our society for example as scum & 'chavs' whereas i do not....does this make them the better person for going on a march? i suspect deep down they think they are...

but hey it's all assumptions innit

[sang-froid]

Not to piss on anyones bonfire but do you really think getting a crew of angry british trustafarians to wave posters on sticks about outside an embassy is really going to stop whats going on? Or are you really doing it because it makes you think your doing your bit to stop what is happening?

To be honest that's some gratuitious, cynical, recycled bullshit. Can't believe you're serious.

i think cynicism takes many forms.....i do tend to agree with jackieboi personally but i do have genuine hope in many other ways and feel this is simply self congratulation....obviously you can never know whats in anyones head and of course i don't put everyone there in the same box but i do feel that protest in a country thats more than happy to let you protest seems less valid than protest in an environment where you're not allowed to...

and i think protesting with placards is more recycled than questioning it....

i just wish as was touched on earlier the section of these protests (im making the assumption attend) that me and others have a problem with would rather than fight causes half way around the world that they are more often than not in my experience not very well informed about actually look at tackling those problems closer to home....not to say they are as big as some problems elsewhere in the world of course and we should be aware of these also but surely charity begins at home?

i bet you many of these protesters label many members of our society for example as scum & 'chavs' whereas i do not....does this make them the better person for going on a march? i suspect deep down they think they are...

but hey it's all assumptions innit

Some useful points made in this post. There is a tangible seam of snobbishness that runs through the attitudes of some of these protestors when it comes to questions on 'home turf'[/b]

[magma]

Ridiculing other people's efforts to do positive things will always be the resort of those looking for reasons not to feel guilty about not show up.

The fact is that tens of thousands of people gathered together to show they care enough to give up a morning for a cause does a lot more to get an issue into the public conscience than sitting at home whining on the internet about how it's not people that look like you that protest.

What if all the white, middle class student types that rallied against the Criminal Justice Bill in the 90s had just sat at home and whined instead?

Fuck apathy.

[tr0tsky]

What if the thousands of people in the UK sat at home during the anti-Boycott Apartheid campaigns?

What if women cotched in the kitchen when the Pankhursts were on hungerstrike?

What if conscripts during the Vietnam war decided not to march on the White House?

What is Rosa Parks stood at the back of the bus and did as she was told?

[sang-froid]

So, when did the fanfare for 'apathy' begin then . . . .

[Pistonsbeneath]

What if the thousands of people in the UK sat at home during the anti-Boycott Apartheid campaigns?

What if women cotched in the kitchen when the Pankhursts were on hungerstrike?

What if conscripts during the Vietnam war decided not to march on the White House?

What is Rosa Parks stood at the back of the bus and did as she was told?

do you really think another war between two sides that have been fighting for ever where one side has the upper hand is really the same as fighting for basic human rights regardless of race?

i don't personally trust what the news has to say entirely so find it hard to get riled up by anything i see on the telly...

i just don't think it's in the slightest bit effective to protest about something like this...not in the same way that it was effective to protest about the aforementioned..

[Pistonsbeneath]

Ridiculing other people's efforts to do positive things will always be the resort of those looking for reasons not to feel guilty about not show up. i don't think they're efforts to do positive things...it's not as simple as that...it's taking a side like it or not

The fact is that tens of thousands of people gathered together to show they care enough to give up a morning for a cause does a lot more to get an issue into the public conscience than sitting at home whining on the internet about how it's not people that look like you that protest.

i couldn't give up the morning as i have to go to work, and i'm not whining merely adding to debate and giving my opinion...as i said do you really think anyone was swayed that wasn't on board?...and do you think accusing people of needing to be guilty for not showing brings you & the movement across in a good light?....people don't have as much time on their hands as those with time to devote to a cause

What if all the white, middle class student types that rallied against the Criminal Justice Bill in the 90s had just sat at home and whined instead?

Fuck apathy.

again the accusation of whining when it's merely a matter of opinion...if i can see a way to protest about something in a constructive manner then i do...fuck being fake...and people there were no doubt

if being a bit more questioning and not blindly following is being apathetic then thats me i guess

[tr0tsky]

do you really think another war between two sides that have been fighting for ever where one side has the upper hand is really the same as fighting for basic human rights regardless of race?

I do, and that's because I see this conflict as being more than just "The Hamas don't like Israel, so they lobbed a bomb. Israel don't like the Hamas, so they lobbed another back".

I see this conflict in the context of a) an oppressed national group, b) the proxy-war politics of a hegemonic world superpower and it's imperialist ambitions within the wider context of c) the world economic system being the material basis for imperialism [with it's scientific meaning, rather than just "horrible countries being nasty to one-another"].

In that respect, it clears the question as to why Starbucks across London have been done-over recently.

Not because Schultz is a baby-eating freak, nor because of some belief that Starbucks is funding the IDF, but because of the role of multi-national corporations in the economic system that, in the final analysis, is a tangible demonstration of it.

"But why go for Starbucks and not any other business like Coke or Macdonalds?"

I don't know, ask the people that are doing the smashing.

[tr0tsky]

I've just re-read this thread and realised that I'm full of shit and need to stop posting about my ill-informed opinions on a music forum.

Safe to everyone for having to listen to my venting!

[doomtube]

WELL WELL what an odd load of strangeness.

Piston, I have a real hard time understanding your comments as punctuation seems to be beyond you

I, like trosky give up on this thread as the arguments about protest/don't protest, etc have been doing the rounds since women got the vote!
Anyway seems like the cease fire may hold, so lets hope the U.N (who have done nothing but loose respect throughout this whole filthy incident) can get in there, along with the Red Cross and Water Aid (which must be vital) and get help to the people caught up in this turf war.

THE END!!