Homophobia?

[magma]

The things you value, and by extension the things you would find attractive in someone else, come from your experiences and how you react and/or perceive them, which influences the choices you make. They all exist in tandem, making them one larger entity which is your environmental (as opposed to inherited) personality.

So is a human a blank slate when they're born or is it just sexuality and a few other lucky traits that get this treatment?

Why are people seemingly born with natural leanings to all sorts of activity, but not sexuality? Couldn't it even be that a bit of both goes into it? Why does it have to be ALL nature or ALL nurture? Isn't that a bit... simplistic?

Humans are terribly complex combinations of tens of thousands of genes and billions of sensory inputs/memories... I can't help but think our individual behaviour is almost always down to a mixture of the two.

[AllNightDayDream]

I think it goes with what you were saying where you imply that "men act like this, women act like that" which frankly I believe is a crock of shit. Sexuality is a specific behavior, not a lifestyle. So when you are being sexually attracted to the opposite sex, you are being heterosexual. When you are attracted to the same sex, homosexual. Simple, really.

Woah, read my other posts on gender... I'm certainly not saying that. All I was pointing out is that sexuality is a fairly separate issue from gender.

You implied it with this:

being a Man is about a lot more than fancying women and being a Woman is about a lot more than fancying men.

I don't believe that "Men act like this, women act like that" but I'm equally not blind enough to not see there are differences between the experience of a Man in society and a Woman in society. That makes transgenderism a serious issue - it IS important that you're viewed by society as the gender you feel you really are.

That's all true, but we are not talking about how society treats genders and sexualities. We are talking about where sexuality comes from.

Humans exist in roles on several levels - although an individual may not feel any sort of way about their gender in their own head, they ARE treated and boxed up differently by the society that they have no choice about being part of; by their family, by their friends, by their advisors at school, by employers, even by the Police and Government. Some people (not me, luckily) fairly quickly know they're being put into the wrong boxes - really, it's not up to anyone but the owner of the brain in question to decide why that is.

Lots of people end up in the wrong boxes even when they are correctly gendered... society's roles for men and women are by no means perfect (see mine and DfD's conversation about toys in the unpopular opinions thread before you assume more of my opinions), but they DO exist and individuals have to deal with them all the time.

Essentially, whether there's "choice" over all these things is such a blurry area that I can't see why anyone would bother arguing for it. I'm sure it is possible to make a choice since sexuality is a spectrum (Hi, Genevieve), but I think it's also possible that people are born at one end of the spectrum and experience no choice - they're either strictly Heterosexual or strictly Homosexual.

I think the confusion comes in by people trying to find blanket rules for everyone. Just let them be... it really doesn't matter why they are what they are. It just matters that we're all nice to each other.

It is definitely important we tolerate diversity, but to not care about why people are this way seems like willful ignorance.

I'm not going to claim it's black and white and clear cut, but I'm an inductivist. I need to see evidence that logically precedes the conclusion. Given what we know now, there is no genetic tie or signature brain wave patterns to sexuality. No one is "born that way", as far as we know now. If we eventually find the gay gene, no one will have a choice ( ) but to accept that fact.

Why does the gay come out when society hates the gay? Why did Marlon Brando send an indian woman to accept his oscar? Why did rosa parks sit in the front of the bus? Why do soldiers volunteer to fight when they know they may not come back? Why did mala refuse to release digital for the longest time? Why did anybody do anything that might upset some people? You see where i'm going with this? If anything this reinforces the power of choice.

Society and our environment influences us, sometimes heavily as it should, but choice is precisely the check and balance. No one can make you gay unless you're open to the idea.

[AllNightDayDream]

That has absolutely no bearing on whether it is a choice or not.

It most certainly does because most people don't like ruining their lives.

And many people need to be authentic to themselves. People will choose to "ruin" their lives for a multitude of reasons, as long as it's worth it for them. (i'm sure some would see it less as ruining their life and more cleansing it)

The things you value, and by extension the things you would find attractive in someone else, come from your experiences and how you react and/or perceive them,

Okay, then, what about experiences that happen when I am too young to make proper decisions? For example,

Have you ever had a "mancrush"? Even in the most innocent sense, where you very passively admit that another man is attractive for some reason or another? What reason was it? Whatever reason it happens to be is the product of your judgements of experience, thus your choice.

What if my mancrush was my first romantic interest ever?

Why would that make any difference? Being young is part of the experience, part of the choice.

[collige]

Why does the gay come out when society hates the gay? Why did Marlon Brando send an indian woman to accept his oscar? Why did rosa parks sit in the front of the bus? Why do soldiers volunteer to fight when they know they may not come back? Why did mala refuse to release digital for the longest time? Why did anybody do anything that might upset some people?

There's quite a big difference between making a political statement or acting based on principles and unwillingly finding yourself in a situation where your life is effectively ruined. The closet door gets forced open fairly often as I'm sure you're aware.

[AllNightDayDream]

Why does the gay come out when society hates the gay? Why did Marlon Brando send an indian woman to accept his oscar? Why did rosa parks sit in the front of the bus? Why do soldiers volunteer to fight when they know they may not come back? Why did mala refuse to release digital for the longest time? Why did anybody do anything that might upset some people?

There's quite a big difference between making a political statement or acting based on principles and unwillingly finding yourself in a situation where your live is effectively ruined. The closet door gets forced open fairly often as I'm sure you're aware.

um... When states discriminate against gays, coming out IS a political statement. Heavy political statements can most definitely get your life ruined. Choice and self-sacrifice are not exclusive, more often than not they are mutual.

[collige]

Read my second sentence. Coming out is not always voluntary.

[AllNightDayDream]

I'm kind of boggled that your guys' logic essentially goes like this:

Society doesn't like gays
Gays are born gay

[AllNightDayDream]

Read my second sentence. Coming out is not always voluntary.

And how does that make a difference? Show me how this proves in any way shape or form that gays are born gay.

[collige]

I'm kind of boggled that your guys' logic essentially goes like this:

Society doesn't like gays
Gays are born gay

I find that

Society doesn't like gays
People choose to be gay anyway at the stake of their lives

to make even less sense, especially given the countless gay people who have said how they had no choice in the matter and would love to not be gay so as to not have to deal with the societal repercussions.

collige wrote:
Read my second sentence. Coming out is not always voluntary.

And how does that make a difference? Show me how this proves in any way shape or form that gays are born gay.

It doesn't, but it does invalidate the idea that being gay when it's unpopular is a political statement of some sort akin to doing a civil rights protest. If it was, people wouldn't go to such great lengths to hide their activities.

[magma]

Given what we know now, there is no genetic tie or signature brain wave patterns to sexuality. No one is "born that way", as far as we know now. If we eventually find the gay gene, no one will have a choice ( ) but to accept that fact.

Since when do we "know" this? We don't even know what most of the genes in the human genome do... we're decades from being able to say we know whether sexuality is genetic.

It seems silly to discount it just because it doesn't suit your experience of the world - you've only ever experienced your brain.

[JBoy]

Who are we to dispute what is natural and what isn't.

[AllNightDayDream]

I'm kind of boggled that your guys' logic essentially goes like this:

Society doesn't like gays
Gays are born gay

I find that

Society doesn't like gays
People choose to be gay anyway at the stake of their lives

to make even less sense, especially given the countless gay people who have said how they had no choice in the matter and would love to not be gay so as to not have to deal with the societal repercussions.

Gay is how they strongly feel. Just like you may have strong reservations about one thing or the other, you can't change it simply because other people want you to.

Read my second sentence. Coming out is not always voluntary.

And how does that make a difference? Show me how this proves in any way shape or form that gays are born gay.

It doesn't, but it does invalidate the idea that being gay when it's unpopular is a political statement of some sort akin to doing a civil rights protest. If it was, people wouldn't go to such great lengths to hide their activities.

It can be. If it wasn't, people wouldn't go to such great lengths to hide it.

If you can't change your sexuality, how is it that it's not uncommon to find normally straight men and women experiment and/or turn the entire opposite way later in life?

[AllNightDayDream]

Given what we know now, there is no genetic tie or signature brain wave patterns to sexuality. No one is "born that way", as far as we know now. If we eventually find the gay gene, no one will have a choice ( ) but to accept that fact.

Since when do we "know" this? We don't even know what most of the genes in the human genome do... we're decades from being able to say we know whether sexuality is genetic.

It seems silly to discount it just because it doesn't suit your experience of the world - you've only ever experienced your brain.

You would still find some correlation in the lineage. Like I said, I can't say with 100% certainty, that's how science is, but the evidence weighs against any inherited gay trait.

This has nothing to do with my experiences. If anything, you keep posing your personal experiences as indisputable proof. If there was a genetic connection, like I said before, there'd be no denying it.

[SCope13]

Nope. The fact that two human members of the same sex can't reproduce convinces me it's unnatural. And I have no "phobia". I'm not afraid of anything about these people. I'm not brainwashed. I just haven't allowed the media: tv shows, magazines & pop stars who force this non-natural lifestyle down everyones throats every chance they get to affect my reasoning on the subject. When two human members of the same sex bring forth offspring or reproduce asexually then we can have a discussion on homosexuality being Nature-al.

Well personally I reckon that human's have developed to the point that both love and sex have other can reasoning behind them than purely for reproduction...

Of course you can have sex for more reasons than reproduction. That doesn't make two members of the same sex having it natural. If people want to live that way they have that choice, but no amount of celebrities choosing to live that way are going to make me accept it as Nature.

I don't think at all that people simply choose to be gay though

Gradual acceptance. Frustration with the opposite sex. Peer pressure. Childhood Abuse / influence. Adult Rape. No, not everyone chooses. Some people through upbringing or other circumstances may truly believe they're behaving naturally. I don't doubt that. Nature itself says otherwise, however.

You honestly think people get "peer pressured" into being gay?

[garethom]

Only an SNH man-train or woman-triangle will solve this debacle.

[faultier]

If you can't change your sexuality, how is it that it's not uncommon to find normally straight men and women experiment and/or turn the entire opposite way later in life?

maybe because of the highly heteronormative effect of education/culture/religion/whatever that may lead gay people to suppress their real sexual orientation until that point in their life when they feel strong enough to embrace it ?

Only an SNH man-train or woman-triangle will solve this debacle.

this

[yoowan]

the word 'nature' needs to be banned

just to stop ketamine from ever posting ever again. what a moron

[magma]

Given what we know now, there is no genetic tie or signature brain wave patterns to sexuality. No one is "born that way", as far as we know now. If we eventually find the gay gene, no one will have a choice ( ) but to accept that fact.

Since when do we "know" this? We don't even know what most of the genes in the human genome do... we're decades from being able to say we know whether sexuality is genetic.

It seems silly to discount it just because it doesn't suit your experience of the world - you've only ever experienced your brain.

You would still find some correlation in the lineage. Like I said, I can't say with 100% certainty, that's how science is, but the evidence weighs against any inherited gay trait.

This has nothing to do with my experiences. If anything, you keep posing your personal experiences as indisputable proof. If there was a genetic connection, like I said before, there'd be no denying it.

I've only posted one personal experience and it wasn't mine.

My whole argument rests on the fact that we don't (and possibly can't) know - I/you can't think with gay people's brains and nobody has fully understood the human genome yet. To hold an opinion that it's either derived fully "naturally" or through nurture is guesswork at this stage.

We simply don't know, but I'm much more comfortable with thinking it's probably a mixture of the two effects than making it a black & white issue and putting all of my chips on Red.

I agree that lineage doesn't seem to play a huge part, but that still doesn't mean it's not connected to a born trait. Plenty of people are born with a "propensity" to certain behaviour (born psychopaths with good childhoods not becoming murderers for example)... it often takes a real-world event to actually spark it. That doesn't mean that the same spark would have the same effect in all people... it's the combination that's all important.

[Genevieve]

I'm kind of boggled that your guys' logic essentially goes like this:

Society doesn't like gays
Gays are born gay

Because the "People aren't born gay, therefore sexuality is a choice" argument is so much better.

I don't necessarily think all gay people are born gay. I think as with most things, there's a genetic predispostition (that varies from person to person) and nurture/experiences shapes them and the outcome may vary according to that.

Nurture isn't the same as choice. Maybe someone is born asexual or heterosexual and experiences make them gay. Doesn't mean they suddenly wake up with a craving for cock. "Oh yeah, that'll make life so much easier" And just because people "turn gay" later doesn't mean that it's a concscious choice. People never stop learning and experiencing things. How they act on those urges is obviously a choice, but urges don't fall from the sky. And "experimenting" is just that.. experimenting. Some get curious and are open to the idea that they may like it. Doesn't mean they're gay, but similarly, they are making a conscious decision to give in to that curiosity.

Besides. Our closest relatives show a lot of gay behavior and behavior is an evolutionary trait as well. From that you can deduce that our sexuality has a common origin with theirs.

[AllNightDayDream]

If you can't change your sexuality, how is it that it's not uncommon to find normally straight men and women experiment and/or turn the entire opposite way later in life?

maybe because of the highly heteronormative effect of education/culture/religion/whatever that may lead gay people to suppress their real sexual orientation until that point in their life when they feel strong enough to embrace it ?

But if they can't choose, and their sexuality is already determined, they would still have homosexual thoughts. They may suppress their sexuality in their appearance and public behavior, but as you assume, they are still homosexual.