london march 10th january

[magma]

again the accusation of whining when it's merely a matter of opinion...if i can see a way to protest about something in a constructive manner then i do...fuck being fake...and people there were no doubt

if being a bit more questioning and not blindly following is being apathetic then thats me i guess

Hang on, so all the people in this thread who have been thoughtfully discussing the issue and the protest are sheep, blindly following a cause they don't really believe in? Despite most of us disagreeing with each other in some way because we've all thought about the cause independently?

That's pretty insulting. Cheers.

The fact of the matter is, you don't actually know what the make up of the protest was, because you weren't there. Tens of thousands of people took to the streets of London to show that they care enough about the issue to turn up - a march can't get across complex arguments, but it can hopefully show the government that we, as a people, want this to be an issue they deal with as a priority. That's all it's for.

People can blog, campaign, write songs, give to charity, write petitions, whatever... marching is just one of those avenues, and historically, it's been one of the most effective, too.

We don't have Direct Democracy like a country like Switzerland, for example, so we don't get to vote on most of the things our government spends it's time on. Protest is an important tool that the public can use to try and shape government policy inbetween elections.

Other than "most people that go on marches don't really care", what do you actually have against them?

[Pistonsbeneath]

again the accusation of whining when it's merely a matter of opinion...if i can see a way to protest about something in a constructive manner then i do...fuck being fake...and people there were no doubt

if being a bit more questioning and not blindly following is being apathetic then thats me i guess

Hang on, so all the people in this thread who have been thoughtfully discussing the issue and the protest are sheep, blindly following a cause they don't really believe in? Despite most of us disagreeing with each other in some way because we've all thought about the cause independently?

urm....when did i say everyone discussing the issue were sheep?....i'm discussing it also..just you don't appreciate my view..i was speaking generally about myself at least

That's pretty insulting. Cheers.

no its not you just want moral high ground...shocking

The fact of the matter is, you don't actually know what the make up of the protest was, because you weren't there. Tens of thousands of people took to the streets of London to show that they care enough about the issue to turn up - a march can't get across complex arguments, but it can hopefully show the government that we, as a people, want this to be an issue they deal with as a priority. That's all it's for.

but surely complex issues cannot be resolved by simplistic demonstrations?...put anyone of the demonstrators in charge of our government/israels government and you think they'd do a better job?

People can blog, campaign, write songs, give to charity, write petitions, whatever... marching is just one of those avenues, and historically, it's been one of the most effective, too.

i don't know how you can qualify that statement unless you have all the marches that have ever taken place in your head.....many marches do nothing i would imagine for i cannot say with any certainty...even if you do

We don't have Direct Democracy like a country like Switzerland, for example, so we don't get to vote on most of the things our government spends it's time on. Protest is an important tool that the public can use to shape government policy inbetween elections.

i have less of a problem with that as many government policies can do a lot for our country & of course affect my life....I have the honesty with myself to not try and kid myself that i have empathy for everyone human being on the earth because i do not...i care about those that i know & well...care about

Other than "most people that go on marches don't really care", what do you actually have against them?

ultimately i find it very very hard to believe that even the majority of people that go on marches for issues 1000s of miles away genuinely care about the plight of the people more than they care about being the kind of person that goes on a march....I am honest enough to admit that A i don't know enough about the issues to hold a valid opinion & B It really doesn't move me one way or the other what I know.

I would say that in my experience people post-ironic...post-apathetic...earnest whatever you wanna call it 9 times out of 10 that i've known have turned out to be fakers....often passive aggressive due to their lack of expression of anger....a huge leap sure but im sure the people im remembering that i've known were there...

[magma]

ultimately i find it very very hard to believe that even the majority of people that go on marches for issues 1000s of miles away genuinely care about the plight of the people more than they care about being the kind of person that goes on a march....I am honest enough to admit that A i don't know enough about the issues to hold a valid opinion & B It really doesn't move me one way or the other what I know.

Perhaps it's an idea to assume that other people can feel differently to you and can care about things you don't. I know lots of people that couldn't give a fuck about music in the same way as me, I live with people that are passionate about fashion in ways that I could never be.... it takes all sorts to make the world go round.

There are evidently tens of thousands of people who feel differently to you that took to the streets - a lot getting organised from long distances. Instead of assuming that they can't really care about anything because you don't (despite you witnessing a pretty sensible and informed conversation on the issue), perhaps you should just step back and realise that it's possible for people to be different to you?

It's fairly obvious from this thread that a few of us clearly read a LOT about this subject from various different sides. Perhaps that might be a clue as to quite how genuinely interested we are in it?

[magma]

but surely complex issues cannot be resolved by simplistic demonstrations?...put anyone of the demonstrators in charge of our government/israels government and you think they'd do a better job?

Sorry, I missed all these points.

This is missing the point of protest. I don't want to be in government, I want the people I elect to be in government - that's how our form of Democracy works. My point in comparison to Switzerland is valid here - we don't have direct democracy, so inbetween elections we can struggle to have a say in what our government is doing on behalf of us.

Protest (through whatever means - marching, writing literature, writing songs, collecting signatures, making speeches at Speaker's Corner, etc etc) is the people's way of shaping government policy inbetween trips to the voting booth. It's not just about saying "THIS IS EXACTLY HOW THINGS SHOULD BE DONE", it's largely about saying "We're worried about this issue and we'd like it to be more prominent - discuss it in Parliament".

How else would the government know how to react on behalf of their people when things crop up midterm? Just wait for The Sun headline to guide them? I'd rather it came from the people...

[Pistonsbeneath]

but surely complex issues cannot be resolved by simplistic demonstrations?...put anyone of the demonstrators in charge of our government/israels government and you think they'd do a better job?

Sorry, I missed all these points.

This is missing the point of protest. I don't want to be in government, I want the people I elect to be in government - that's how our form of Democracy works. My point in comparison to Switzerland is valid here - we don't have direct democracy, so inbetween elections we can struggle to have a say in what our government is doing on behalf of us.

Protest (through whatever means - marching, writing literature, writing songs, collecting signatures, making speeches at Speaker's Corner, etc etc) is the people's way of shaping government policy inbetween trips to the voting booth. It's not just about saying "THIS IS EXACTLY HOW THINGS SHOULD BE DONE", it's largely about saying "We're worried about this issue and we'd like it to be more prominent - discuss it in Parliament".

How else would the government know how to react on behalf of their people when things crop up midterm? Just wait for The Sun headline to guide them? I'd rather it came from the people...

this is a fair point but i bet you you could find more than a few people in the streets calling for a very specific & unrealistic action to be taken against whichever cause they are fighting against......you seem sensible & logical but the people i know are usually full of shit & think in a highly simplistic manner regarding complex issues & shooting them down takes little effort

[nousd]

I strongly empathize with what both PissedOff and Magman have posted immediately above. How can that be?
Maybe cos I dislike scenesters and the apathetic alike.
And like those who speak out against suffering as well as those who avoid espousing righteous causes they are not adequately informed about.

[magma]

this is a fair point but i bet you you could find more than a few people in the streets calling for a very specific & unrealistic action to be taken against whichever cause they are fighting against......you seem sensible & logical but the people i know are usually full of shit & think in a highly simplistic manner regarding complex issues & shooting them down takes little effort

Fair enough. I don't know your friends, so can't comment on them. Out of my household, two of us take a major interest in current affairs and the other 3 take a passing interest. It was far too cold for them to come along the other week.

In a protest that size, individual viewpoints don't get across (unless you're at the front trashing a Starbucks ), the main thing is just the visual impact of tens of thousands of people organising themselves to walk through London because of a particular issue that they're worried about. That's the message that gets through to the government and I think, on balance, it's a helpful one, even if some of/a lot of the individuals are more radical/less thoughtful.

And anyway, by making those quick assumptions you've left yourself open to being as easy to shoot down as those people you know!

[tr0tsky]

Good job, Magma.

As for 'radical' or 'activist' scenesters, the German experience is much, much worse than anything we see here.

There is a stereotype of the typical leftist activist: dreadlocks, pot-smoking, the unfair stereotype that they're youths from middle class backgrounds and almost universily all students.

This is a crass generalisation to make. I for one am clean shaven, don't have peircings or dreads anymore, go to work everyday, wear a fucking suit and tie on a daily basis and try to make a distinction between my day-to-day life and my political activism/ideas.

In the context of the specific demonstration, I've said it once and I'll say it again:


The majority of the people on it were young, Asian men. NOT trustafarians.

[doomtube]

wow still going eh?

i think the picture i posted a while back on this thread shows the utter variety of the people on that last march.

Piston you make some valid points but it's real hard to understand your writing without punctuation. Also i don't think logic has much to do with demonstration in a democratic society. It is driven by passion not reasoning.
I assume a lot of the people I saw at this march were there to show there anger understanding that a small march through London was not really going to affect the actual events in Gaza. The pictures of the rally that day were shown on al-jazeera which can be seen in Gaza etc. This DID give Palestinians hope. This I know for a fact. Therefore even if the march did not achieve the goal of stopping the conflict it DID achieve 100% of its purpose for me.

[Pistonsbeneath]

wow still going eh?

i think the picture i posted a while back on this thread shows the utter variety of the people on that last march.

Piston you make some valid points but it's really hard to understand your writing without punctuation. Also i don't think logic has much to do with demonstration in a democratic society. It is driven by passion not reasoning.
I assume a lot of the people I saw at this march were there to show their anger understanding that a small march through London was not really going to affect the actual events in Gaza. The pictures of the rally that day were shown on al-jazeera which can be seen in Gaza etc. This DID give Palestinians hope. This I know for a fact. Therefore even if the march did not achieve the goal of stopping the conflict it DID achieve 100% of its purpose for me.

I type how i type...it's how i've always typed on forums...however i know the difference between there, their & they're