Homophobia?

[magma]

Nurture isn't the same as choice.

Yes. This. Exactly.

Choice implies it's a conscious decision. Sexual desire is just about the least conscious of the urges we're enslaved to.

[magma]

But if they can't choose, and their sexuality is already determined, they would still have homosexual thoughts. They may suppress their sexuality in their appearance and public behavior, but as you assume, they are still homosexual.

Again, it's far too black/white yes/no 1/0 gay/straight.

People exist on a spectrum - some people are perfectly able to fancy both genders and so can make a choice as to which they're going to chase (i.e. not who they find attractive, who they actually approach for sex. Others are further towards the ends of the spectrum - they experience no choice.

We're not all the same. Our brains are the most complicated and least predictable structure in the known universe... second guessing them is ridiculous.

[AllNightDayDream]

Given what we know now, there is no genetic tie or signature brain wave patterns to sexuality. No one is "born that way", as far as we know now. If we eventually find the gay gene, no one will have a choice ( ) but to accept that fact.

Since when do we "know" this? We don't even know what most of the genes in the human genome do... we're decades from being able to say we know whether sexuality is genetic.

It seems silly to discount it just because it doesn't suit your experience of the world - you've only ever experienced your brain.

You would still find some correlation in the lineage. Like I said, I can't say with 100% certainty, that's how science is, but the evidence weighs against any inherited gay trait.

This has nothing to do with my experiences. If anything, you keep posing your personal experiences as indisputable proof. If there was a genetic connection, like I said before, there'd be no denying it.

I've only posted one personal experience and it wasn't mine.

My whole argument rests on the fact that we don't (and possibly can't) know - I/you can't think with gay people's brains and nobody has fully understood the human genome yet. To hold an opinion that it's either derived fully "naturally" or through nurture is guesswork at this stage.

We simply don't know, but I'm much more comfortable with thinking it's probably a mixture of the two effects than making it a black & white issue and putting all of my chips on Red.

I agree that lineage doesn't seem to play a huge part, but that still doesn't mean it's not connected to a born trait. Plenty of people are born with a "propensity" to certain behaviour (born psychopaths with good childhoods not becoming murderers for example)... it often takes a real-world event to actually spark it. That doesn't mean that the same spark would have the same effect in all people... it's the combination that's all important.

Funny you mention that because there is a gene that gives people small amygdalas, and they have a much higher propensity to commit violent crimes. Like you say, nurture can change that, in fact the man who discovered the gene had it himself. But no such thing has been discovered for sexuality. You believe we will find one, I am more skeptical. In the absence of evidence for inherited traits, I'm inclined to believe it's environmental.

[magma]

Funny you mention that because there is a gene that gives people small amygdalas, and they have a much higher propensity to commit violent crimes. Like you say, nurture can change that, in fact the man who discovered the gene had it himself. But no such thing has been discovered for sexuality. You believe we will find one, I am more skeptical. In the absence of evidence for inherited traits, I'm inclined to believe it's environmental.

Maybe, not necessarily. Tbh, I believe we are nowhere near the point in understanding human genetics where we can even speculate as to whether there might be one or not. We can observe homosexuality in other animals fairly easily and commonly - that's enough for me to believe it's not something that's invented by the human intelligence - a propensity for homosexuality is certainly existent in a lot of species. It may yet be shown to be a pretty socially advantageous thing to have, too.

We're babies in this shit really... and the more people I meet that actually have anything to do with genetics, the more I'm convinced of that and nothing else. It's not time to start getting cocky... most times people get over-confident about sexuality they end up coming out with something mental like Freud did a century or so ago; we're still not ready for over-arching theories of sexuality yet.

[Genevieve]

This goes further than just homosexuality. Same with pedophilia. A grown up person isn't going to concsciously decide to be attracted to toddlers. There is NO pay-off to it.

[magma]

Hell, a dog will quite happily fuck a human's leg if it's horny... sexuality in the animal world is mental.

[Genevieve]

Hell, a dog will quite happily fuck a human's leg if it's horny... sexuality in the animal world is mental.

That´s a sign of dominance, doe. When they hump you, they think you´re submissive to them.

Basically, yorkshir terrier will think you're its bitch when it's humping your leg.

There's reports of male ducks fucking dead ducks, though. Including male ones.

[SCope13]

Ketamine doesn't like Liquid Swords therefor his opinion is invalid.

[AllNightDayDream]

I'm kind of boggled that your guys' logic essentially goes like this:

Society doesn't like gays
Gays are born gay

Because the "People aren't born gay, therefore sexuality is a choice" argument is so much better.

I don't necessarily think all gay people are born gay. I think as with most things, there's a genetic predispostition (that varies from person to person) and nurture/experiences shapes them and the outcome may vary according to that.

Nurture isn't the same as choice. Maybe someone is born asexual or heterosexual and experiences make them gay. Doesn't mean they suddenly wake up with a craving for cock. "Oh yeah, that'll make life so much easier" And just because people "turn gay" later doesn't mean that it's a concscious choice. People never stop learning and experiencing things. How they act on those urges is obviously a choice, but urges don't fall from the sky. And "experimenting" is just that.. experimenting. Some get curious and are open to the idea that they may like it. Doesn't mean they're gay, but similarly, they are making a conscious decision to give in to that curiosity.

Besides. Our closest relatives show a lot of gay behavior and behavior is an evolutionary trait as well. From that you can deduce that our sexuality has a common origin with theirs.

Different people react differently to the same environmental stimuli. This we can maybe agree is due to their inherited predispositions, but once your genes react to the environment, that's it. Your reaction is in the form of choice, but choice is part of a tandem of genetics and experience, nothing else.

Like for example a man who is sexually abused by another man, and then afterwards becomes gay, opposed to the woman who is sexually abused by a man and turns gay. I would think people put those experiences through the filters of their brain and it would spit out a conclusion in the form of choice.

This sort of goes into the whole obstacle of free will or lack thereof, so in danger of doing that i'm willing to rest my case and sleep on it.

[hasezwei]

This goes further than just homosexuality. Same with pedophilia. A grown up person isn't going to concsciously decide to be attracted to toddlers. There is NO pay-off to it.

thing is pedophilia shouldnt be legal anyway cause it pretty much equals rape.
i dont like it when pedophilia and homosexuality are compared to each other, its entirely different.

[magma]

There's reports of male ducks fucking dead ducks, though. Including male ones.

Don't get me started on ducks. Not only do they rape more-often-than-not, they're fucking adapted for rape. Ducks are all the evidence I need of the non-existence of a "Good" Lord.

[scspkr99]

This goes further than just homosexuality. Same with pedophilia. A grown up person isn't going to concsciously decide to be attracted to toddlers. There is NO pay-off to it.

I'm always concerned when people bring in any argument referencing paedophilia into a thread about sexuality.

[BLAHBLAHJAH]

Maybe you're unearthing the problem's roots. Maybe genotype/phenotype (heredity/products of heredity) are irrelevant. Nature, nature, choice, consciousness, desire, - Sounds like people are beating around the bush named "free will"

Here's a dramatic summary of the last 8 pages



"A FRIENDSHIP YOU COULD NEVER IMAGINE"

[Dub_freak]

[collige]

Nurture isn't the same as choice.

Yes. This. Exactly.

Choice implies it's a conscious decision. Sexual desire is just about the least conscious of the urges we're enslaved to.

This. I'm just going to agree with magma and Genvieve and duck out of this particular conversation. It's quite obvious that it wasn't really going anywhere productive and we obviously have different definitions of "choice".

This goes further than just homosexuality. Same with pedophilia. A grown up person isn't going to concsciously decide to be attracted to toddlers. There is NO pay-off to it.

thing is pedophilia shouldnt be legal anyway cause it pretty much equals rape.
i dont like it when pedophilia and homosexuality are compared to each other, its entirely different.

It can be argued that they're quite similar. The big difference is, for one of those actually having sex means than one of the partners is generally agreed upon to not be able to properly consent. Also, I don't think pedophilia should be criminalized at all, that's akin to legislating thought crimes; It's child abuse that's the problem. You can want to fuck whatever you want.

[scspkr99]

It can be argued that they're quite similar. The big difference is, for one of those actually having sex means than one of the partners is generally agreed upon to not be able to properly consent. Also, I don't think pedophilia should be criminalized at all, that's akin to legislating thought crimes; It's child abuse that's the problem. You can want to fuck whatever you want.

This doesn't make any sense, paedophilia is the same as heterosexual attraction if so. Which makes your point slightly less unpalatable if no less wrong.

We don't send people to prison for wanting to have sex with children. Wanting to fuck whatever isn't a crime.

[collige]

This doesn't make any sense, paedophilia is the same as heterosexual attraction if so. Which makes your point slightly less unpalatable if no less wrong.

What's so nonsensical about it?

We don't send people to prison for wanting to have sex with children. Wanting to fuck whatever isn't a crime.

Absolutely, but I have a strong feeling that quite a number of people think we should.

[Dub_freak]

This thread is going nowhere.

[ketamine]

Who are we to dispute what is natural and what isn't.

There is no dispute.

When a reproductive act is conducted between members of the same sex, there is no reproduction.

Nothing about that requires a discussion.

Everything outside of this: ( do they love each other / where they born that way / sex isn’t just for reproduction, etc ) has no bearing on your question. Your physical biology defines it.

You can choose (or be raised to believe) that you’re a dolphin & eventually become aroused at the sight of them, and when you finally get up enough courage, try to mate with one--get even more courage and admit it publicly, then get laws passed to allow you to marry, and then call everyone who thinks what you do itsn’t normal a bigot.

Attraction to, and sex with, a dolphin, for a human is not natural. It will never produce offspring.
Atrraction to, and sex with, same-sex person, for a human is not natural. It will never produce offspring.

I am not closed minded just because I don’t accept everything society throws at me.

[Dub_freak]

STOP CALLING IT UNNATURAL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals