CCTV to be Shut Down During G20 Summit

[alien pimp]

I give up.

thanks!
sorry, but i can't help you, you can't help me, live it like that

[magma]

If I do convince you banks are killing people will you quit your job or just find a lame excuse to be payed blood money?

If you gave me solid evidence that Deutsche Bank PLC have a policy of murdering people of course I would quit my job.

I'm fairly sure you can't.

Now, if we were talking about Ford Motor Company in the 70s, well you'd definitely have a point. But it sounds like baseless hysteria at the moment. For every negative about capitalism/economics that someone comes up with there is also a positive - millions have been raised above the poverty level by globalisation, and yes, some have been made worse off at the expense of the super-rich - that needs curbing, but it takes a more intelligent and considered point of view than "BURN THE BANKS".

You've got to start thinking in shades of grey rather than black and white.

[alien pimp]

If I do convince you banks are killing people will you quit your job or just find a lame excuse to be payed blood money?

If you gave me solid evidence that Deutsche Bank PLC have a policy of murdering people of course I would quit my job.

I'm fairly sure you can't.

Now, if we were talking about Ford Motor Company in the 70s, well you'd definitely have a point. But it sounds like baseless hysteria at the moment. For every negative about capitalism/economics that someone comes up with there is also a positive - millions have been raised above the poverty level by globalisation, and yes, some have been made worse off at the expense of the super-rich - that needs curbing, but it takes a more intelligent and considered point of view than "BURN THE BANKS".

You've got to start thinking in shades of grey rather than black and white.

see, you've already bent my words a little at the margins, just to find an escape
so i see you are not willing to quit. then why should i bother?
as for your globalisation: why everything is globalising but the distribution of wealth? is it by merit you think? what's that merit?

as i said before, grey is the color of the smokescreen, everything is rather good or rather bad

[magma]

I've just had a read through the links you posted on page 6 of the thread. Nothing to particularly change my mind there - certainly not to make it as black and white as you seem to think. Yes, banking practises need tighter regulation, but I think that will largely need to be concerned with the FX markets and also on taking on debtors with too much risk associated.

I think that blaming banks for the business of their clients is a bit tenuous. If we don't want companies to make weapons, then we should legislate against making weapons for export - not take down the banks because that's where they got their capital from. If the banks didn't exist, the companies would still start somehow.

Same goes for oil companies. If you want to regulate the oil industry, regulate the oil industry. Don't try and do it directly by wiping out the banks. The solution for our oil problems lies with highger technology, not an end to capitalism as far as I can see.

Same for Huntingdon Life Sciences. They are a legal business. If they are made illegal, then yes, banks shouldn't be allowed to be involved in their finances. They're not though. They're legal. If you want to end testing on animals, try achieving it directly... don't turn it into a reason to attack banks.

http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/ind ... -scotland/ - Well that just makes no sense as a relevant argument at all, does it? Isn't nationalising them and enhancing regulation *directly* aimed at stopping them making bad decisions in the future??

So please.... how did you get to your opinion that banking is inherently bad and not just currently mismanaged and in need of reform?

Do you think the company that made your synth, your record player or your computer would exist without banks? Would you like them not to exist?

[magma]

see, you've already bent my words a little at the margins, just to find an escape

When you make statements like this it's best to explain *how* I've bent your words and *what* my "escape" was. It helps you be understood by people.

so i see you are not willing to quit. then why should i bother?

Because if you believe in your way of thinking fully then you should also believe that it should happen. In order for it to happen you need to convince the majority of people to support it. Convince the majority of people to support you. Otherwise you're just all talk.

as for your globalisation: why everything is globalising but the distribution of wealth? is it by merit you think? what's that merit?

Could you clarify what you mean exactly, please? Didn't quite get that one? Do you mean why is wealth unevenly distributed? Well, that's for a variety of reasons... the time in which economies have had to grow and establish themselves, protectionism, unfair practises, human greed.... all sorts of reasons. We have legislation (and probably need more) to control these things, but it's not perfect yet. I'm certainly not arguing that capitalism is a perfect system - I'd like to know what you're proposing to replace it with though?

as i said before, grey is the color of the smokescreen, everything is rather good or rather bad

Quite. Which is why I ask you to explain your opinions rather than sit behind the smokescreen of telling me to find out how you got there myself - you're the one who got to this point of view - surely you know how?

[alien pimp]

it's not clients, banks ARE PARTENERS in dirty bussiness!
i can't help you man! stay in the grey area as you please
never thought everyone can be saved or deserved to be saved, and i'm not here to save you (if anyone)

you like being payed blood money, you are ok to lend money for guns to kill your brothers, you wash your hands of all responsabilities without a shade of remorse, but if i come to your bank to ask support for a project i bet i'll have a harder time than any corporation that hurts people

so save yourself. first from yourself.

[magma]

it's not clients, banks ARE PARTENERS in dirty bussiness!
i can't help you man! stay in the grey area as you please
never thought everyone can be saved or deserved to be saved, and i'm not here to save you (if anyone)

you like being payed blood money, you are ok to lend money for guns to kill your brothers, you wash your hands of all responsabilities without a shade of remorse, but if i come to your bank to ask support for a project i bet i'll have a harder time than any corporation that hurts people

so save yourself. first from yourself.

So what are your goals in this conversation? Have you just admitted that all of your input on this thread was completely useless because you hold no hope of ever changing anyone's mind?

That's a real pity. I'd hope that if I'd really considered my opinions, I'd at least be confident enough to back them up. I don't agree with tr0tsky half of the time, but he at least takes the time to explain his thoughts properly and I have a big respect for him, because I know his opinions are considered - you've given us a lot of opinion, but none of the consideration or logic behind it.

Anyway, peace - if you're not willing to explain or act on your opinions, I might as well consider that you don't hold them. We have no squabble.

Fancy a ruck tr0tsky? I just heard a banker call your Mum a slag.

[alien pimp]

[kins83]

[tr0tsky]

A number of people have said some horrible things about my mother in the past. It hurts and you know what...behind the facade of a trade union bureaucrat by day and violent communist insurgent by night I'm a sensitive young man.

millions have been raised above the poverty level by globalisation

Also, I totally disagree with this but I'm about to leave work and so I'll reply to it tomorrow rather than in time I'm not being paid to dick about online.[/quote]

[alien pimp]

when you want to sort your moral dilemmas by lying yourself, you can't even operate google properly. that's why everything i don't want to become is somebody like magma. i made the same mistake working for mainstream media and consciously propagating false propaganda. I see it as a big mistake and I assume paying for it, i don't lie to myself

but now i'm safe and it took me 5 mins to find these readings, that's nothing compared to the whole literature available out there:

Deutsche Bank has been named in several securities fraud cases, the most high profile of which is the Enron scandal. Deutsche Bank is accused of helping Enron set up an off-the-balance sheet partnership with a company called LJM, which was run by Enron executives.

http://www.dbankfraudinfocenter.com/information.php

The Deutsche Bank and the izan economic war against the Jews


The izan Dictatorship and the Deutsche Bank

In particular, Deutsche was closely associated with the near-collapse of the metals group Metallgesellschaft; the bankruptcy of the Jurgen Schneider real estate group and the record losses at Daimler-Benz, Germany's largest industrial group.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 49712.html

President Obama has announced programs to reduce or prevent foreclosures, but these will come too late for tens of thousands of Americans who are being forced from their homes by Deutsche Bank. From Boston to Honolulu, Deutsche Bank is America's Foreclosure King. In Kansas City alone, Deutsche Bank is the largest owner of foreclosed properties, and is letting the city rot as it allows the properties to fall into disrepair and neglect.

http://www.dialoginternational.com/dial ... tices.html

[tronn]

I'm not into conspiracy theories, never was but something strikes me as weird...

So you saw lots of pictures of banks having their windows boarded up. Bankers told to dress down. The biggest police operation in the history of the City of London. The fuzz have been planning this for MONTHS.

And they pen protesters in next to an RBS. That's not been boarded up. Where all of it's staff have been given the day off (unlike EVERY other bank/branch in the City, where staff were just told to dress down).

A pig set-up? Without a doubt.

ps: Soldiers and coppers are scum.

I think that if you wanted, you could make similar arguments about why would anyone turn up to a protest, that they're planning on carrying out peacefully wearing black face masks/scarves/balaclavas - they wouldn't... it wouldn't surprise me if there were vested interests on BOTH sides to have a bit of a scuffle. The likelyhood is that the vast majority of people on both sides wanted it to go well/peacefully, though.

Saying that all policemen and soldiers are "scum" is ridiculously sweeping and pretty ignorant for someone as intelligent/thoughtful as you tr0tsky. Soldiers are to follow orders... there are plenty posted around the world who would rather not be where they are, but they do what they "country" (or what our elected leaders) ask them to do. I'm always incredibly sceptical of anyone that demeans soldiers - unless it's individual bad apples which you get in *any* field (it's just that in soldiering, there's more possibility for horrible crimes).

On the ninjas issue, I don't know if this applies across the sea, but protesters here in the US wear masks because many protests are filmed by police, and the film is used to identify 'leaders' who are subsequently arrested and tossed in some jail on a bogus charge, like inciting civil unrest or some nonsense like that.

[Whistla]

big up to all the protestors!
great to see people power
terrible to see police violence, so because of that i also say big up to the violent protestors giving it back to the scum
burn the banks!

One Solution - Revolution

Yes, because getting back at police violence by smashing up somewhere that we ALL own, is really logical. Protest and, if needed, violence can be very effective - it helps if it comes from people with the vaguest idea what they're protesting against though.

Where have I heard that Revolution slogan before? Oh yes, comedy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDZJDV16Bas

back home from excel so can defend yesterdays post now:
If you notice the violence i was referring to was the violence directed @ police (this is what i meant by "scum" a common slang word for police in my part of london).
To further expand on your statement: I would argue that yes once provoked by the "Stooges of the State" (police) then attacking other symbols of the state is acceptable. If we reverse this isnt it wot the police do to us? One person spits in a coppers face @ the protest, he gets offended and swings his batton wildly hitting anyone in his way. (this is just one exacmple of how violence versus violence is seem as acceptable for one part of society but not from another.)
I think you will find most of the people know what they are protesting about
also
seeing as how this thread has progressed since my last post i figure i would clarify my stance with regard to the army/cops/banks etc....
WE DON'T OWN THESE BAILED OUT BANKS! the govt does, they bought out the failing banks with money they stole from you. Your argument that by smashing these windows you are smashing the windows of your own property is like saying whenever sumthing is stolen from you you are then responsible for what the money is used for!
Never forget that you have absolutely no say what happens with these banks so to say you have sum vested interest in them is pure folly.
So yes bankers and banks are valid targets.
Same with the police - Stooges of the Govt, they are the way the govt oppresses you on the daily and are scum thru and thru.
Same with the armed forces. The argument that people join for a job is just plain unacceptable. That is like staying because they are stupid or in poverty then going and killing innocent people in a foreign land is ok because the govt says they are your enemy. If people join the army they are stepping into the State system and by default are in favour of what it does to its citizens, this alone makes them legitimate targets.
Bit of a ramble but hope i answered your queries

[datura]

Same with the armed forces. The argument that people join for a job is just plain unacceptable. That is like staying because they are stupid or in poverty then going and killing innocent people in a foreign land is ok because the govt says they are your enemy. If people join the army they are stepping into the State system and by default are in favour of what it does to its citizens, this alone makes them legitimate targets.

I can't agree with this at all. There was a study recently I think of troops in Iraq and they found that a lot of the soldiers were just shooting up in the air and not at 'enemies' as they didn't want to kill anyone. Until recent years the majority of troops have been stationed in the UK or in training camps and would never see any action, in the meantime saving money as their accomodation is supplied, and then when they leave they have a nest egg to start their lives and give them a chance that they might not have had in life if they hadn't enlisted.

For supposedly intelligent people, there is a lot of crass generalisations being made in this thread, you cannot understand the motivations for everyone, and surely the best way to change any institution is from within, not outside with a placard in one hand and a brick in the other.

[Whistla]

Same with the armed forces. The argument that people join for a job is just plain unacceptable. That is like staying because they are stupid or in poverty then going and killing innocent people in a foreign land is ok because the govt says they are your enemy. If people join the army they are stepping into the State system and by default are in favour of what it does to its citizens, this alone makes them legitimate targets.

I can't agree with this at all. There was a study recently I think of troops in Iraq and they found that a lot of the soldiers were just shooting up in the air and not at 'enemies' as they didn't want to kill anyone. Until recent years the majority of troops have been stationed in the UK or in training camps and would never see any action, in the meantime saving money as their accomodation is supplied, and then when they leave they have a nest egg to start their lives and give them a chance that they might not have had in life if they hadn't enlisted.

For supposedly intelligent people, there is a lot of crass generalisations being made in this thread, you cannot understand the motivations for everyone, and surely the best way to change any institution is from within, not outside with a placard in one hand and a brick in the other.

i agree to disagree with you on this

[datura]

Same with the armed forces. The argument that people join for a job is just plain unacceptable. That is like staying because they are stupid or in poverty then going and killing innocent people in a foreign land is ok because the govt says they are your enemy. If people join the army they are stepping into the State system and by default are in favour of what it does to its citizens, this alone makes them legitimate targets.

I can't agree with this at all. There was a study recently I think of troops in Iraq and they found that a lot of the soldiers were just shooting up in the air and not at 'enemies' as they didn't want to kill anyone. Until recent years the majority of troops have been stationed in the UK or in training camps and would never see any action, in the meantime saving money as their accomodation is supplied, and then when they leave they have a nest egg to start their lives and give them a chance that they might not have had in life if they hadn't enlisted.

For supposedly intelligent people, there is a lot of crass generalisations being made in this thread, you cannot understand the motivations for everyone, and surely the best way to change any institution is from within, not outside with a placard in one hand and a brick in the other.

i agree to disagree with you on this

Haha, touche

[frebentos]

havent had a chance to read ALL of this but have got the jist of pretty much everyone. Il be writing up what i thought over the past two days next week (wayyy too much other stuff on the now).

in the meantime heres a ocuple more shots from yesterday, il get todays up at some point.

[a of dkr]

There was a study recently I think of troops in Iraq and they found that a lot of the soldiers were just shooting up in the air and not at 'enemies' as they didn't want to kill anyone.

fucking lol. So I guess the countless dead innocent ppl died because most of those bullets shot in the air somehow still hit them by mistake?
while i totally agree with generally not generalizing, i don't need to check every goddamn egg to see that the yolk is yellow. I betcha you'll find a blue one in a zillion eggs, but I think we all still agree that yolks are yellow.

So I think everyone here that's being honest to himself and others would agree that ppl enrolling nowadays in the army know exactly what they're getting themselves into and just decide that killing innocent ppl is a reasonable price to pay to get out of their money problems. scums. or they are mindless slobbering idiots believing they'll be fighting for their countries.

[fuagofire]

it's not clients, banks ARE PARTENERS in dirty bussiness!
i can't help you man! stay in the grey area as you please
never thought everyone can be saved or deserved to be saved, and i'm not here to save you (if anyone)

you like being payed blood money, you are ok to lend money for guns to kill your brothers, you wash your hands of all responsabilities without a shade of remorse, but if i come to your bank to ask support for a project i bet i'll have a harder time than any corporation that hurts people

so save yourself. first from yourself.

just because the guy works at the bank doesn't mean he has any part in anything like that - at the end of the day everyone is stuck in the system of running things, and saying about earning blood money and shit is fucking stupid, there are alot of people who who don't like the current model of capitalism , but we are all consumers, we all have to eat and pay the bills , if you dont like blood money, grow your own food , dont buy drugs, dont buy booze dont pay internet. turn all the lights off in your house, live in a tent ect ect ect and as for banks being murderers the people at the top might be a bunch of selfish stnuc who need to hang but murderers?!?!

[alien pimp]

not at all