Dubstep is Grime made properly!

[masstronaut]

Anyway Battle Gong, you are right that prejudice is a major problem with the world. I just think that reinforcing ideas about class and race boundaries in the UK only plays into the hands of those who would rather see the people divided.

[John Locke]

And...

"u could say the use of melody in black music as well as drums and rythm comes as a reaction to living in western/white dominated society???"

U could, its all good, but in a way its irrelavent too; mixing of styles, influences, cultures whatever is normal and there's nothing unnatural or 'fake' about it,

but thats not my main point, i aint dissing on dubstep in any way, what i'm saying is i reckon white or middle class kids flock to dubstep and look down on grime for the reasons i already made clear earlier, cos they scared of it, cos its seen as 'too black' or whatever and dubstep is like a more digestable form.

and also, bare in mind that plenty of the middle class i talking about here are probably black or asian or whatever too, by middle class i do not mean just white

[masstronaut]

@Battle Gong

I'm not saying there is such a phenomenon as you are describing, but so what if there is? There is nothing wrong with preferring music that more closely resembles your experience! FFS! That's what I meant about 'guilt'. Is the white middle class male the new bogey man, deserving of no respect for not being oppressed enough?

And there is also nothing wrong with liking music that is alien and exotic to your experience.

People got to get over their hang ups on identity. Be yourself, not a race or a class.

By the way, what's the biggest market for 'gangsta' rap in the US?

[John Locke]

masstronaut,

there's no reading between the lines to be done (though the statement WAS deliberately provacative), no matter how ridiculous or extreme it might seem to u i mean what i say quite literally

but i'm happy to accept that i'm wrong if u can convincingly argue that even 30 percent of the genres of popular music that came out in the last 100 years where a predominantly white innovation. Maybe i being blind, or my musical knowledge is too limited, but lets start with blues, soul, jazz, rock, techno...even heavy metal started out as distorted covers of old blues tracks

i aint alone in thinking this shit. and not just some dusty academics an that, u not heard that mos def track dissing on the rolling stones?

[John Locke]

"I'm not saying there is such a phenomenon as you are describing, but so what if there is? There is nothing wrong with preferring music that more closely resembles your experience! FFS! That's what I meant about 'guilt'. Is the white middle class male the new bogey man, deserving of no respect for not being oppressed enough?

And there is also nothing wrong with liking music that is alien and exotic to your experience."

People got to get over their hang ups on identity. Be yourself, not a race or a class."

agreed. And guilty on every count.

but that int my point. my point is that people say all kinds of other shit, like its badly done, unsophisticated, or whatever, when what they actually mean is something totally different.

yo, i'm not trying to start some fucking class war here, i'm just suggesting people think b4 they speak and be a bit more aware of whats really going on inside their heads and outside in the world.

i'm sure nuf people, a majority even, wont agree, in fact they probably stopped reading this thread long ago, but if even 3 people go away and think about what i said then it was (for me) worth saying

How does that quote thing work by the way, cos i making a mess here

[masstronaut]

my point is that people say all kinds of other shit, like its badly done, unsophisticated, or whatever, when what they actually mean is something totally different.

Well, you could be right there. I have come across those attitudes, I'm sure we all have. You are going out on a bit of a limb though by calling it here without any direct evidence. People argue over musical styles all the time without it having anything to do with class or race. And people get irrationally partisan about their favourite stuff as well, like football teams for instance.

i'm just suggesting people think b4 they speak and be a bit more aware of whats really going on inside their heads and outside in the world.

Fair enough, it's usually a good idea.

[-blade-]

its this button straight and then up ^

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[John Locke]

its this button straight and then up ^

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thanks, nice arrow

[-blade-]

pleased to read you!

[masstronaut]

but i'm happy to accept that i'm wrong if u can convincingly argue that even 30 percent of the genres of popular music that came out in the last 100 years where a predominantly white innovation. Maybe i being blind, or my musical knowledge is too limited, but lets start with blues, soul, jazz, rock, techno...even heavy metal started out as distorted covers of old blues tracks

Well you've massively changed your terms there with the word 'popular', something I suggested up-thread. You also previously said this was more about class than race, but anyway...

It's easy to argue that blues, jazz and soul were of largely black origin because they were, but even then it's not that straightforward.

Techno is not such a simple case I don't think, and with rock, where would you say most of the 'innovation' has come from in the last 40 years? Who's run with that batton? And when does 'innovation' become 'origination', when does it become something new?

The reason I said your original statement was absurd was that you were completely discounting the worlds of classical and avant-garde music. And that's just in terms of America and Europe. What about all the music from many other places in the world that has very little to do with black (or African) music? There have even been innovations in English Folk music in the last 100 years.

Hey, this was a pretty good way to kill the thread!

[elgato]

"the point is its just ridiculous to present the idea in such generalised terms. it inevitably provokes poor debate"

Does it? Explain this theory please...

in my opinion yeh man, witness the page worth of one line rejections of any value in what you said! even though there is value in there... i know it gets attention, but it also alienates the people who need to listen most. i would say that the most likely reaction of someone guilty of what you're chatting about would be to reject it off the cuff and bury it deep down where it no longer challenges what they think

dont get me wrong, i think there are aspects of what you're saying which are very worth saying, but presentation is key if you want to make people think. it is just a difference of opinion though, different styles or whatever, but i dont see it as a productive approach. but then you have got people chatting!

"... and when boiled down is little better than those making bigoted statements on the other side of the fence."

Actually, its NO better than those making bigoted statements, its just an opinion, as their's is.

if we take it right down to fundamentals then i agree, but assuming you want to achieve something in saying something, then you form goals, and that precipitates (subjective) assumptions about what is positive and negative, on the basis of which i can validly attribute value to what you say. then subjectivity just becomes something to hide behind when you make errors based on your own logic...

I reckon anyone who followed DnB over the years (in the UK) and noticed the changing fanbase (both white and black working-class in the begining, white students now) will have an idea what i talking about.

i just dont think this is true really, any dnb nights ive been to have been multicultural, and multi-class affairs. although i would say that there is a fair degree of division, a lot of bad attitudes kicking around about 'charves' or 'rudeboys' or whatever, but then also a lot about 'students' too. but either way its far more complex than you're giving it credit for

[elgato]

but thats not my main point, i aint dissing on dubstep in any way, what i'm saying is i reckon white or middle class kids flock to dubstep and look down on grime for the reasons i already made clear earlier, cos they scared of it, cos its seen as 'too black' or whatever and dubstep is like a more digestable form.

this highlights one of the key complications in this issue...as masstronaut points out, middle-class, primarily white suburban USA constitutes by far and away the biggest audience for hip-hop! there are so many people for whom the reaction is precisely opposite, theyre compulsed and excited by the voyeuristic visions of 'life from the other side'. you could make a strong argument that the overwhelming development of mainstream hip-hop into gangsta, pimp and drug-lord imagery is the result of middle-class america's desire for said stereotypes

im not saying there's no truth in what you say, by any means, i just think it undermines you, and the topic, to put it all in generalised absolutes

[elgato]

but i'm happy to accept that i'm wrong if u can convincingly argue that even 30 percent of the genres of popular music that came out in the last 100 years where a predominantly white innovation. Maybe i being blind, or my musical knowledge is too limited, but lets start with blues, soul, jazz, rock, techno...even heavy metal started out as distorted covers of old blues tracks

first off, why should it have to be predominantly white innovation for me to justify questioning what you're saying? why even frame the question in such divisive terms? and why 30%?!

my main beef is with your generalisations... i would say that there is truth in some of your words, but where does it take you? if all you have is generalisations which lead you to extreme conclusions?

and its widely acknowledged that techno was black middle-class kids. uk garage was a multicultural mix, and many key innovators/figures in early grime were white. jungle and hardcore i believe was likewise (although im not too up on my facts on that one). many key innovations in house and techno have been by white people (to give examples i know of... basic channel, perlon/kompakt, west coast US deep house...). quite a number of early jazz and swing musicians were white, as masstronaut points out you've completely ignored classical and avant-garde, and many key innovations in 'rock', as well as folk/americana

but it actually sickens me to have to talk in these terms. i can see that your intentions are good, and there are enough people who need to consider their attitudes, but i hate that debate has come to this...

[corpsey]

Not to get into this conversation but it's quite interesting because I've been reading about the Blues recently and the way black and white genres have interacted in the formation of Blues, Ragtime and so on is quite interesting. For example, Blues is (to simplify) a combination of black field hollers and work songs and European ballad form. Then with ragtime, it started as black musicians imitating white musicians who had been originally imitating black musicians- and then eventually ragtime became imitated by white musicians!

I think there has been on a general level a historical tendency of white audiences going for diluted forms of black music, and perhaps eventually shifting those forms of music on a popular commercial level into that dilution.

But to be honest I think people might dislike grime and like dubstep for any number of reasons. You might just not like MCs, for example. Or it might be too frentic for you. It's a shame, but understandable, that people will hear a few popular grime tunes and base their assumptions about grime as a whole on those few tunes, or make very quick judgements and mentally set them in stone.

[Jubz]

Also there was a very interesting TV program earlier in the year investigating
the relations between gaelic christian singing of some of the pilgrims to the USA and the call and response of gospel music in America.

[Jubz]

Jubscarz wrote:
blah blah blah blah blah

LOL. tnuc.

[corpsey]

Jubscarz wrote:
see signature

[Jubz]

Derkhead, you cant even quote properly.

[Jubz]

Just imagine his hairs ginger and you can save yourself the bother of a mirror.

[corpsey]

Just imagine your hairs not ginger and you can save yourself the bother of a paternity test.