Cleese: 'London is no longer an English city'

[LACE]

Minority groups have to choose there battles wisely or we'd be thrown into a ''crying wolf'' situation. But as Pistonsbeneath is saying, it's patronizing to tiptoe around people's skin color/race, just as I'm sure she found it patronizing for you to assume that because she is Indian, she must have some banging bollywood shit on vinyl. It's like the SP episode when Cartman's starting his Christian rock band Faith plus 1. He tells Token to get the bass guitar out his basement. Token says, he doesn't have a bass guitar, Cartman replies ''Token, you're black, all black people play bass'. It's frustrating and tiresome to have to live your life under ''white people's'' assumption of who you are, and what you must like simply because you're from a certain place. Even though it seemed to be light hearted conversation, who knows how many times she's had to deal with those little quips from other people..


You know to be frank, I can't wait til we all settle this race/immigration/assimilation thing, I'm so ready to start the class war.

[dreamizm]

Ive heard mixed race people have to be called dual heritage nowadays. I agree that the world is getting too soft with a lot of things, seems to me you cant say anything without offending someone.

Daily Mail website's that way, mate --> http://www.dailymail.co.uk

"It's political correctness gone MAD I TELL YOU"

Haha!

Lot of idiots on this thread.

If you don't adapt to change, you die. Simple.

Why lament change/evolution of things rather than enjoy it and embrace the new opportunities it presents, especially when this change is inevitable anyway? You just cause yourself undue frustration and anger.

Peace

the people that need to adapt more will express their adaptation through words and there will be a curve

those that dont need to adapt as much due to location/income etc etc will just patronize

^^Sorry, but I have no idea what this means.

no one in this thread has mentioned Chinese immigrants: one of the most culturally different, socially isolated groups we have in this country - but in the media, they are not touched on, and haven't been touched on for many years. Despite that a massive amount of illegal chinese immigrants exist in this country that dont speak the language or integrate AT ALL..

I have always wondered this too, esp strange when you consider the relatively limited amount of media attention given to the triads (back in the day, at least) and Chinese gangs linked to cannabis factories (more current) and the crazy amount given to black teenage gangs in Peckham or Tottenham.

[Pistonsbeneath]

[quote="LACE]just as I'm sure she found it patronizing for you to assume that because she is Indian, she must have some banging bollywood shit on vinyl[/quote]

her parents, i said her parents NOT her, she just liked nirvana and other shit rock music...ironically i was bored of her talking about that stuff and thought the conversation could get more interesting for me if we took it in that direction, it wasnt my fault in the slightest that she had decided to leave that side of her culture behind so much that even alluding to her parents was going to offend her..it was hers

she was a friend of a friend and she had red hair, it was no huge loss and it didnt get to me much save for the annoyance of someone thinking they have the right to be offended over something so stupid when really theyre the ones trying to distance themselves from their roots/parents roots which is a sad thing

if i was saying she owned it then i could have kinda understood lace,this was years ago anyway, i now would know not to even try and talk to someone so obviously damaged

[LACE]

Fair enough =)

[magma]

no one in this thread has mentioned Chinese immigrants: one of the most culturally different, socially isolated groups we have in this country - but in the media, they are not touched on, and haven't been touched on for many years. Despite that a massive amount of illegal chinese immigrants exist in this country that dont speak the language or integrate AT ALL..

I have always wondered this too, esp strange when you consider the relatively limited amount of media attention given to the triads (back in the day, at least) and Chinese gangs linked to cannabis factories (more current) and the crazy amount given to black teenage gangs in Peckham or Tottenham.

I think it's largely the quiet and unfalteringly polite way that large amounts of those communities integrated themselves into British society in all the ways the existing Britons actually cared about - commerce, education, high culture, work-ethic, politeness... South Asians turned out to be even better at running small businesses than English Fish & Chip sellers... they turned up and excelled at all the things we take the most pride in as a nation... they even managed to keep organised crime politely under the radar.

I think a lot of it stems from the fact that they haven't had the cultural shadow of slavery hanging over them. There hasn't traditionally been a meme in society that South/East Asians are an "inferior" race... almost oppositely, their stereotypes tend to encompass violin and calculator-toting child prodigies and a tacit acceptance that "one day, we'll all be Chinese"... as a Westerner, you're more likely to be prejudiced into thinking an Asian will outsmart and outwork you, which is just as ludicrous, if not nearly as socially damaging, as believing that they'll wild out and rob you at knifepoint before raping your woman.

[capo ultra]

i don't extend extra kid gloves/cotton wool towards anyone regardless....sugar coating is what you do with children...if i think someones being retarded and theyre not 'english' or of 'english' descent and me telling them may give them grounds for calling me a racist im going to do it regardless...the same way i will call anyone out

exactly

[magma]

i don't extend extra kid gloves/cotton wool towards anyone regardless....sugar coating is what you do with children...if i think someones being retarded and theyre not 'english' or of 'english' descent and me telling them may give them grounds for calling me a racist im going to do it regardless...the same way i will call anyone out

exactly

Genuine question because I've probably just read this too hastily and misinterpreted, but why does not being English come into play if someone's being retarded? Do you mean they're being retarded in a way that only a non-English-person could be, or is it ok for English people to act retarded and not immigrants?

I mean, "You fucking retard" is pretty plain and simple. Dude was being retarded. "You fucking German retard" seems to have one to many clauses, unless they were being particularly foolish with a Bratwurst. The only reason you'd put an extra adjective into an insult is if that adjective was considered insulting!

[Pistonsbeneath]

i don't extend extra kid gloves/cotton wool towards anyone regardless....sugar coating is what you do with children...if i think someones being retarded and theyre not 'english' or of 'english' descent and me telling them may give them grounds for calling me a racist im going to do it regardless...the same way i will call anyone out

exactly

Genuine question because I've probably just read this too hastily and misinterpreted, but why does not being English come into play if someone's being retarded? Do you mean they're being retarded in a way that only a non-English-person could be, or is it ok for English people to act retarded and not immigrants?

I mean, "You fucking retard" is pretty plain and simple. Dude was being retarded. "You fucking German retard" seems to have one to many clauses, unless they were being particularly foolish with a Bratwurst. The only reason you'd put an extra adjective into an insult is if that adjective was considered insulting!

my point being i treat everyone the same regardless not that they were being retarded in a manner that isnt english...i honestly dont know where u got that from...my point was that everyone is the same for me...the fact youve taken it that way leads me to believe that maybe youre more likely to call someone out if theyre english

[magma]

i don't extend extra kid gloves/cotton wool towards anyone regardless....sugar coating is what you do with children...if i think someones being retarded and theyre not 'english' or of 'english' descent and me telling them may give them grounds for calling me a racist im going to do it regardless...the same way i will call anyone out

exactly

Genuine question because I've probably just read this too hastily and misinterpreted, but why does not being English come into play if someone's being retarded? Do you mean they're being retarded in a way that only a non-English-person could be, or is it ok for English people to act retarded and not immigrants?

I mean, "You fucking retard" is pretty plain and simple. Dude was being retarded. "You fucking German retard" seems to have one to many clauses, unless they were being particularly foolish with a Bratwurst. The only reason you'd put an extra adjective into an insult is if that adjective was considered insulting!

my point being i treat everyone the same regardless not that they were being retarded in a manner that isnt english...i honestly dont know where u got that from...my point was that everyone is the same for me...the fact youve taken it that way leads me to believe that maybe youre more likely to call someone out if theyre english

Certainly not (I'm not generally one for calling people out, tbh... I try to live and let live as far as possible in the real world) I was just wondering what the point of mentioning someone's non-Englishness was in that situation?

If someone was being a dick to me, I'd call them a dick. I wouldn't call them an English, German, American or Bangladeshi Dick... just a dick...

I think I read your post wrong (which is why I posted asking for clarification)... you were saying that you'd tell them they were retarded, I'd read it as you'd tell them they were retarded AND not-English, which was what got me confused. No need for the counter-insults when I'm not trying to insult, mate.

[Pistonsbeneath]

i don't extend extra kid gloves/cotton wool towards anyone regardless....sugar coating is what you do with children...if i think someones being retarded and theyre not 'english' or of 'english' descent and me telling them may give them grounds for calling me a racist im going to do it regardless...the same way i will call anyone out

exactly

Genuine question because I've probably just read this too hastily and misinterpreted, but why does not being English come into play if someone's being retarded? Do you mean they're being retarded in a way that only a non-English-person could be, or is it ok for English people to act retarded and not immigrants?

I mean, "You fucking retard" is pretty plain and simple. Dude was being retarded. "You fucking German retard" seems to have one to many clauses, unless they were being particularly foolish with a Bratwurst. The only reason you'd put an extra adjective into an insult is if that adjective was considered insulting!

my point being i treat everyone the same regardless not that they were being retarded in a manner that isnt english...i honestly dont know where u got that from...my point was that everyone is the same for me...the fact youve taken it that way leads me to believe that maybe youre more likely to call someone out if theyre english

Certainly not (I'm not generally one for calling people out, tbh... I try to live and let live as far as possible in the real world) I was just wondering what the point of mentioning someone's non-Englishness was in that situation?

If someone was being a dick to me, I'd call them a dick. I wouldn't call them an English, German, American or Bangladeshi Dick... just a dick...

I think I read your post wrong (which is why I posted asking for clarification)... you were saying that you'd tell them they were retarded, I'd read it as you'd tell them they were retarded AND not-English, which was what got me confused. No need for the counter-insults when I'm not trying to insult, mate.

all good mate

[noam]

peoples attitude to political correctness on here is hugely naive

PC isnt necessarily the right way to be due to it being the view of those it directly affects, it more often than not comes from middle class guilt and you know it

what censoring people often achieves is a lack of discussion and people silently holding on to their views...

you think its naive to think what i've said then you say 'oh its middle class guilt'

...

you're confusing the illusion of political correctness with the intended preservation of dignity and the promotion of respect

you think being PC is a bad thing because people can use it to cover their own guilt whilst you neglect the real and positive upshot of it which is finding a language and a pathway of communication that navigates an already mine-laced road between clashing cultures

you're saying people should just say whats in their heads and not be made victim for expressing their ideas and emotions regardless of how misdirected and inappropriate it can be in the wrong circumstances

if you're around friends and people you know then fine, say whatever, you have boundaries that you all recognise

if you're around people you dont know you need a language that allows you to bypass the bullshit and get to know the person so you can define your own boundaries in that respect

and that starts with respecting how people wish to be addressed - THAT is political correctness, and its not mad, its honest and respectful

saying 'i've got loadsa mates who are black or brown or whatever and we call each other paki's and honky's etc. all the time!" is just crass... it doesn't work for everyday life, and rightly so, those are boundaries you make with friends, not with anyone off the street. If someone wants to be addressed as 'Dual Heritage' then fine, call them that! how does it make your life any harder. If people react badly if you ask them thats THEIR problem, the point is you do the steps right.

i try and treat everyone truly equally mate...i mean TRULY equally

i don't let anything warp that....i don't extend extra kid gloves/cotton wool towards anyone regardless....sugar coating is what you do with children...if i think someones being retarded and theyre not 'english' or of 'english' descent and me telling them may give them grounds for calling me a racist im going to do it regardless...the same way i will call anyone out

It seems discriminatory and racist to put more effort into sparing the feelings of one group of people due to their race than another, one thing that makes me vomit more than anything else is people tiptoing around people due to their skin colour/race, it's patronizing

If i was black i would feel the same way im sure and ive had many conversations with friends that happened to be black that felt the same way

would you always indulge people regardless of their background in the same way irrespective of your view?

mixed race and dual heritage mean the same thing...in my view if people are offended being called mixed race then im offended by them and would wish to exercise my right to call them that

offence can happen to anyone from anything and its just not as simple as people choosing what offends them to me....there are valid grievances and not so valid grievances in my book and i will call them out if i think i can qualify their stupidity

you're attaching idea's to what i said that i never aimed to imply

i dont advocate 'tiptoeing' around people's races, just the same way that i dont advocate blasting through the walls of racial division with a stubborn unwillingness to change the way you think or address people in order to avoid offence

what does people 'being retarded' have anything to do with what im talking about??

all im saying here is that being politically correct in some respects has advantages for both parties involved in a dialogue. im still unsure about what 'middle class guilt' really is referring to, in my experience no class of people are more or less racist than the other, its not about white-washing sections of society with generalisations

thats the entire point im getting at, and something Genevieve touched on before - when we learn to deal with people as individuals who have their own wants/desires/feelings/emotions etc. you can leave behind the irrelevant bullshit that comes with loaded terms and realise that each person has their own idea's about their own indviduality and identity.

being PC to some extent aids this process... yes there is a case to be made that people in some positions are required to go to extreme lengths, and some people will inevitable go too far anyway, as is the case with any large group of people ever because people are different.

what i want to know is why you think its so wrong to do this, and why you think treating everyone equally is such a noble thing when the evidence, in reality, is that people are obviously very different. myself, as a 'minority' dont find it patronising when someone tries not to offend me with the way they talk, and contrarily find it irritating when people i dont know go too far and are seemingly unsympathetic to the fact it is easy to misinterpret what might be an entirely harmless joke to one person, from what is an attempted attack or slur to another.

you may have spoke to loads of black people, or loads of indians but that doesn't mean you know how everyone who is black or indian or whatever feels about it - and the idea, surely, is to overcome potential barriers by just being polite. as i said, once you know someones barriers you can work within that.

[capo ultra]

it's funny that he says he calls out people for 'being retarded' yet is arguing the opposite, that people should be allowed to say whatever misinformed crap they want and not expect people to reply

people that mix with people of other cultures and dont see it as meaning anything whatsoever are more comfortable talking about this kind of subject and less prone to flying off the handle than people that stick to their white friends and enlightened middle class views....i mix with a huge variety of people many of which came over here themselves and not just their parents....people like us will just take the piss out of each other and that is true equality....

what a generalisation

it's no wonder you fail to see a problem when other people generalise

the idea that only rich white people have enlightened views is a bit mental and not helpful. I am proud that I strive not to be ignorant unlike so many people like us

also there is nothing wrong with taking the piss out of eath other, what gave you the idea that anyone here thinks otherwise? you seem to be arguing against points that no one has made

[clifford_-]

generally, people that listen to skrillex also listen to dr p

[noam]

generally, people that listen to skrillex also listen to dr p

PROVE IT SUCKA

[skimpi]

Well, where are all the English people?'

how can you tell by walking down a street? did he give everyone a survey to see how english they were?

no he looked at the colour of people's skin and made a snap judgement

exactly.

cant be arsed to read the whole thread so dont know if anyone else has said this, but how do you know he is judging on colour of skin? are you from london? no. there are lots of foreign people in london, and there are alot of white foreign people. you can tell they are foreign because they have foreign accents and talk to other people in their native language. now im not racist and i dont have a problem with foreign people being in the country, im not really proud of being british, if i could get out of here i could. but you go into shops and cafes and the people who are working their are foreign and you know they are cos of the language. so thats probably what he is on about when he is saying where are all the english people. i dont really know what he is moaning about though, there are lots of foreign people everywhere, nowadays with the prices of flights and shit, people move all over the place.

[capo ultra]

it's completely ludicrous to portray anyone that confronts ignorant opinion as a wet middle class liberal

[capo ultra]

Well, where are all the English people?'

how can you tell by walking down a street? did he give everyone a survey to see how english they were?

no he looked at the colour of people's skin and made a snap judgement

exactly.

cant be arsed to read the whole thread so dont know if anyone else has said this, but how do you know he is judging on colour of skin? are you from london? no. there are lots of foreign people in london, and there are alot of white foreign people. you can tell they are foreign because they have foreign accents and talk to other people in their native language. now im not racist and i dont have a problem with foreign people being in the country, im not really proud of being british, if i could get out of here i could. but you go into shops and cafes and the people who are working their are foreign and you know they are cos of the language. so thats probably what he is on about when he is saying where are all the english people. i dont really know what he is moaning about though, there are lots of foreign people everywhere, nowadays with the prices of flights and shit, people move all over the place.

very fair point well made

I am not from London, no. But neither is John's californian friend.

When I visit London the last thing I think is 'where are all the english people?' even with all the different races, languages, cultures etc it seems such a bizarre and ridiculous thing to come out with, not to mention, entirely negative.

I mean, London is a capital city it's supposed to be a hotbed of multiculturalism. When I visit Bangkok soon I'm sure that it will be a fairly poor representation of Thai culure, but I'm not going to bitch about the lack of Thais, I'm going to accept it as a given and then explore the rest of the country.

[fractal]

Exactly. One of the best things about seatlle and Vancouver is how multicultural they are. So many different flavors, cultures and styles! So many different places to eat. Cities and cultures are ever changing. It's just our short lifespan and egos that make it seem like things are supposed to be the same way forever. Embrace change or become a bitter curmudgeon imo

Also, what culture is he trying to save? English cuisine?

[noam]

Exactly. One of the best things about seatlle and Vancouver is how multicultural they are. So many different flavors, cultures and styles! So many different places to eat. Cities and cultures are ever changing. It's just our short lifespan and egos that make it seem like things are supposed to be the same way forever. Embrace change or become a bitter curmudgeon imo

Also, what culture is he trying to save? English cuisine?

OI

[fractal]

Soz, couldn't help myself