#Occupywallstreet >

[LACE]

I get you pkay, keep in mind I am an American expat in Iceland and I've lived in several states as well, but my point is..when you lay out the differences in American society as far as point of view and cultural backgrounds, assimilation and class differences, there are some similarities despite the size of the each respective country. More so then here in Iceland where everyone looks the same, and pretty much acts the same, more so then in Norway or Sweden where assimilation hasn't been to the extent that it has been in the US and England. In a sense, I agree with both of you, more with magma, but I also think it's quite easy for the English to understand the real problem in the US with our class/societal divisions.

[magma]

I'm willing to accept the non-American card on this one though, I have no idea how it feels to be American and Texan, American and a New Yorker or American and a Hawaiian. It's an interesting experiment to watch, though...

Taking into account the size of the US, America and England are one in the same. The same regional differences in the US apply to those who are Black British, Indian British, Cambodian British etc. living in England today. It's the same struggle I suppose?

You're getting muddled with scale... the US is fucking enormous, just because all the States share a common language doesn't mean they don't live vastly different lives. I quite like the idea of common law and sovereignty over a continent (or even the globe, we're all humans), but if we instated it tomorrow it wouldn't make me the same as a Frenchman.

Also, Black doesn't carry a culture, it's a skin tone - Jamaican, Nigerian, Ghanaian, Ethiopian, Somalian, etc etc nationalities and traditions carry culture... frankly an awful lot of 3rd, 4th or even older black Britons wouldn't bother defining themselves as anything but British and I'd hope find the idea that they should still feel different for being Black thoroughly offensive! (but that's a whole other thread)



Edit: I imagine they're closer in culture than England and France, but still, it's a challenging experiment. I'm not saying impossible - it's worked for quite a long time and, unlike pkay, I don't see it stopping any time soon... in fact, I imagine we'll see Europe moving closer to a US style governance rather than the other way around.

[LACE]

You're getting muddled with scale... the US is fucking enormous, just because all the States share a common language doesn't mean they don't live vastly different lives.

Which is what I'm trying to demonstrate in my previous post, there are groups which live vastly different lives in England, same as in the US be it culturally or regionally, so in a sense, we have that common denominator, the experiment is alike in both countries. So in turn, it doesn't exclude you as a Londoner from making sense of our social divergences.

[pkay]

Financial collapse can come in the blink of an eye. I don't think the US can recover once things start to pick up speed, partially because the scale of our state governments are basically the blueprints for a national government to begin with. We wouldn't be starting 100% fresh like some of the former soviet republics.

As much as it's a joke in the US about Texas seceding I think it would become a reality if things started going down quickly... and from there I think state governments would have a lot of pressure to take charge.

I think states becoming independent would actually be very smooth in comparison to other newly developed nations.

If Mr. Pkay could take over things I think it'd be a fantastic idea to have each state run itself and have a member based group for military purposes which could solve a lot of problems that the beast of the US has created.

One can only hope.

[jugo]

and the state of western australia is nearly 4 times larger than texas. so what?
this is meaningless.
fields don't use money and vote - people do.

US pop. - 308.7 million
texas pop. - 24,782,302

europe pop. 830.4 million
# 1 Germany: 81,471,834
# 2 France: 65,102,719
# 3 United Kingdom: 62,435,709
# 4 Italy: 61,016,804
# 5 Spain: 46,148,605
# 6 Poland: 38,441,588
# 7 Romania: 21,413,815
# 8 Netherlands: 16,680,500
# 9 Greece: 10,760,136
# 10 Portugal: 10,636,979

so texas comes in between poland and romania

yeah, it might be like a different country, but it's still a small one

[pkay]

and the state of western australia is nearly 4 times larger than texas. so what?
this is meaningless.
fields don't use money and vote - people do.

US pop. - 308.7 million
texas pop. - 24,782,302

europe pop. 830.4 million
# 1 Germany: 81,471,834
# 2 France: 65,102,719
# 3 United Kingdom: 62,435,709
# 4 Italy: 61,016,804
# 5 Spain: 46,148,605
# 6 Poland: 38,441,588
# 7 Romania: 21,413,815
# 8 Netherlands: 16,680,500
# 9 Greece: 10,760,136
# 10 Portugal: 10,636,979

so texas comes in between poland and romania in terms of individuals who can make a difference

I think you've been distracted by the map and somehow assumed what I was saying without reading the context of the post.

Densely populated areas are more likely to share the same ideas, religions, job opportunities, educational opportunities, and problems amongst the people.

The size map was to get you to think how different life in the UK is from that of the Czech Republic.

From climates difference, to language, to education level, to the amount of farming land and therefor how you make your living can differ. North Texas is very different from Southern Texas due to its size.

My point was that the 'individuals who can make a difference' in our state, let alone our country live immensely different lives and as a whole are ignorantly governed by an entity impossible of looking out for everyone in a proper fashion.

you mentioned the size of europe and its population and then went on to list all the different governments who each operate their countries differently in respect to the interests of their citizens. Imagine if Europe was ruled by one central government. I think there would be a slight bit of conflict in how things operated from country to country

[LACE]

I think states becoming independent would actually be very smooth in comparison to other newly developed nations.

If Mr. Pkay could take over things I think it'd be a fantastic idea to have each state run itself and have a member based group for military purposes which could solve a lot of problems that the beast of the US has created.

One can only hope.

Yeah, definitely not gonna happen pkay. With the US it's either all or nothing. The Civil War set the precedent and we will follow even if it means the total collapse of our nation. Meh. I'm not optimistic either, as a woman I'm actually glad I don't have kids to fend for.

[pkay]

I dont think it'd be 50 states... I think Texas could easily secede but outside of california it'd be the only one who could operate on its own. I could easily see something like Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, and Wisconsin making a country.

However, I don't see any of it happening without the full on collapse of the US government.

[zerbaman]

at that rant

[mks]

I live in the nation of Cascadia.





It's not that new of a concept around here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_% ... ovement%29

[pkay]

lol love how vermont is its own nation

[LACE]

You know, whose to say we can't form our own countries again, re-map the world as they did in the 40's and the 1500's and all that. Problem is, human beings don't internalize history and they always end up succumbing to the same corruption which tears down the very ideals they were trying to uphold in their newfound nations. It'll never work.

[hifi]

supply and demand people. law of diminishing marginal utility.

[noam]

and the state of western australia is nearly 4 times larger than texas. so what?
this is meaningless.
fields don't use money and vote - people do.

US pop. - 308.7 million
texas pop. - 24,782,302

europe pop. 830.4 million
# 1 Germany: 81,471,834
# 2 France: 65,102,719
# 3 United Kingdom: 62,435,709
# 4 Italy: 61,016,804
# 5 Spain: 46,148,605
# 6 Poland: 38,441,588
# 7 Romania: 21,413,815
# 8 Netherlands: 16,680,500
# 9 Greece: 10,760,136
# 10 Portugal: 10,636,979

so texas comes in between poland and romania in terms of individuals who can make a difference

I think you've been distracted by the map and somehow assumed what I was saying without reading the context of the post.

Densely populated areas are more likely to share the same ideas, religions, job opportunities, educational opportunities, and problems amongst the people.

The size map was to get you to think how different life in the UK is from that of the Czech Republic.

From climates difference, to language, to education level, to the amount of farming land and therefor how you make your living can differ. North Texas is very different from Southern Texas due to its size.

My point was that the 'individuals who can make a difference' in our state, let alone our country live immensely different lives and as a whole are ignorantly governed by an entity impossible of looking out for everyone in a proper fashion.

you mentioned the size of europe and its population and then went on to list all the different governments who each operate their countries differently in respect to the interests of their citizens. Imagine if Europe was ruled by one central government. I think there would be a slight bit of conflict in how things operated from country to country

cultural hegemony

people in america lead vastly different lives as expected of a population of +200million - BUT are united socially and culturally behind the ingrained prototypical idea's of the United States of America as a whole entity

cultural identity is not as simple as saying, well theres 200million people here, living under marginally different laws with different standards of living

that ofcourse is a part of it, but reaching for answers by looking into either micro or macro socio-economic politics which sees the difference in views portrayed here as in some way absolute is a non-starter

you have to look at both the fact that as citizens of the USA you have a natural independance from other citizens living 1000's of miles away from you, caused by all the reasons listed, yet a unifying set of 'golden rules' in the Constitution you (pkay) alluded to before, and a uniform belief in the basic principles which dominate your countries ideology (the same can be said of any large nation but the division and paradoxical unity is so clear cut in the case of america) act as hegemonic net which washes over the differences allowing your country to be controlled as it were

the point im making is that yes, there are clear differences socially and culturally between americans dependant on more than simply location; but paradoxically, or is it more of an oxymoron[?], as Americans even the under-under class of immigrants both legal and illegal are all united by similar beliefs indoctrinated in you proto-innately (yes... before you were even conceived) by the very fact of you being born there OR by the USA's global influence (a global hegemony of sorts).

people know what America is as a concept before they've even been there, and this DOES have an effect on the population. I believe this must also be taken into account along with the clear differences between citizens also.

[pompende]

Literally. Dallas/Fort Worth is now millions upon millions of cookie cutter homes, 2.5 children, an SUV, a credit card with $3000 in debt, all sheepishly falling in line.

i really don't understand why you are upset that people would want to address that issue?
even the stupidest sheep at a rally might walk away understanding that they don't want to bank at a corporation anymore or use credit cards... jeeze.

if you think this is a lost cause then leave it alone and go back to your videogames. arguing with brits ain't gonna do shit about protesters in nyc and i'm sure everyone is tired of your curmudgeonly old man schtick by now.

leave it. this thread is half full of fallacies and grumpy old man shit you've put in here simply because you want to argue.




also, for anyone wondering:
i can assure you, as someone born and raised in the us, that magma actually knows at least as much as pkay about national politics and society in america.

[pompende]

people know what America is as a concept before they've even been there, and this DOES have an effect on the population. I believe this must also be taken into account along with the clear differences between citizens also.

yuhhhh
and of course there is a huge american 'mainstream' ... plenty of stuff is equally popular everywhere in america. and of course i do agree that anything that is going to appeal to people all over the nation must be very very broad and pretty shallow. I mean, i've always assumed this is why shows like 2 and a Half Men and Lost exist.

[pkay]

Literally. Dallas/Fort Worth is now millions upon millions of cookie cutter homes, 2.5 children, an SUV, a credit card with $3000 in debt, all sheepishly falling in line.

i really don't understand why you are upset that people would want to address that issue?
even the stupidest sheep at a rally might walk away understanding that they don't want to bank at a corporation anymore or use credit cards... jeeze.

you really need to read entire posts. You're arguing the same thing I'm arguing.

Not sure why you're insulting my personal life. You've insulted the fact I was in the military... multiple times insulted that I design video games... all because my opinion differs from yours?

For the sake of keeping things civil here I'm going to put you on ignore. If you can't leave things as debating ideals I wouldn't associate with you in real life and in consequence can't find a positive reason to associate with you here.

Despite my differences with Magma or someone like Noam... I'd gladly share a beer and a blunt peacefully with them with the understanding that the opinion on one subject does not determine the man.

Sorry you wanted to keep it ugly but you can win the trophy and rule the forums between pompede vs pkay.

[pompende]

my country is full of fucking morons.

if any of you are participating in this shit you are a fucking moron

Wall Street is a reactionary entity. If you do not understand this occupy a fucking library and learn how our economy works.

Look at the name of the computer you're on, look at your headphones, look at your shoes, your socks, the tv, the furniture, the fridge, the oven the microwave. Look in your driveway, where you bank, where you buy food from, likely where you work.

Wasted too much time on facebook trying to educate friends. You're all assholes for not paying attention in school.

[magma]

Despite my differences with Magma or someone like Noam... I'd gladly share a beer and a blunt peacefully with them with the understanding that the opinion on one subject does not determine the man.

Quite... let's keep in civil, ninjas. It's all love... opinions are like clitorises, every tnuc's got one.

[budsteq]

Despite my differences with Magma or someone like Noam... I'd gladly share a beer and a blunt peacefully with them with the understanding that the opinion on one subject does not determine the man.

Quite... let's keep in civil, ninjas. It's all love... opinions are like clitorises, every tnuc's got one.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... ite=sydney except this tnuc