Ferguson riots

[nobody]

Who said it is a good thing? I don't think anyone did, I know I didn't. Yes, I think the guy is an idiot who asked for it (literally!!), as I said earlier, if he had done the same thing to an armed civilian the outcome would have been the same.

It's simple, don't be aggressive towards US police, they have guns and they like shooting people, a lot, you are a stupid idiot if you get a knife out anywhere near them.

[DrGatineau]

All of your arguments about video games, movies, you have no experience with a gun, blah blah blah, are just invalid ad hominems. They are ridiculous arguments and I completely disagree with your "facts." If you can shoot someone in the fucking forehead at 35 feet TWICE, then you can shoot someone in the thigh.

Anything about "become a police officer" or "I'm sure you could aim for his big toe" is a ridiculous red herring and I won't address it further.

if you act like that, waving a knife around, shouting crazy shit and then approach someone then you must expect them to interpret that as hostility

We seem to have a massive disparity in our understandings of the facts of this shooting. He didn't even lift the knife above his waist, and he wasn't shouting "crazy shit". The only thing he said was "shoot me, shoot me now".

I think the shooting is morally justified as well. I think the officers could have backed away and attempted to create space and attempted to contain the guy with verbal commands, for a couple of seconds at least, the dude was closing distance fast though.

No he wasn't. He was barely walking towards them. They could have walked faster away from him than he was walking towards them.

A few things, one, I've posted up in here about the guy who wanted to be a police officer, but he tested with too high of an iq. Police forces routinely will turn away applicants with iq's that are too high. It is a real thing, with real implications, and ultimately is real evil. Two, the police trained to do exactly as they did in this case. Accusing the officer of racism or whatever is just ignorant, that is the training they receive, if you have viable alternatives for defensive tactics those changes need to be top down, and you need to push them as a responsible citizen.

I never accused the officer of racism. I don't think this shooting has much to do with racism at all. It has to do with previously bullied-in-high-school low IQ douchebags with chips on their shoulders thirsty for blood and wanting to use their toys like they do in call of duty carrying around deadly weapons in our streets. Complete police reform is what is desperately needed in this country. Basically yeah, what you just said about "viable alternatives for defensive tactics.

RUBBER BULLETS
TASERS
BATONS
PEPPER SPRAY
WARNING SHOTS
WALKING AWAY TO CREATE SPACE
AIMING FOR THE LEGS (really not unreasonable at all seeing as most men don't have a "thigh gap" and together, the thighs are about the same size as your chest/torso, which is where they usually aim, if not for the head, which is obviously a harder target)

How many times does it need to be said?

Although I do think they would have reacted completely differently and been less provocative and not pointed their guns at his face the minute they stepped out of the vehicle if it was a white victim.

When it comes down to a dude charging at a cop, screaming with a knife in his hand, it is too late.

Charging? It's like we've watched two completely different videos except we haven't

So, I'm not calling myself totally aware of what is going on here, but within 21 feet officers are trained to shoot assailants with knives.

Maybe try watching the video again?

[bennyfroobs]

[nowaysj]

All of your arguments about video games, movies, you have no experience with a gun, blah blah blah, are just invalid ad hominems. They are ridiculous arguments and I completely disagree with your "facts." If you can shoot someone in the fucking forehead at 35 feet, then you can shoot someone in the thigh.

Anything about "become a police officer" or "I'm sure you could aim for his big toe" is a ridiculous red herring and I won't address it further.

Because you can't. You don't even have a minimum level of competency in the subject to be able to discuss it. You're talking about unicorns and rainbows, I'm not going to have an oxford style debate with you.

[DrGatineau]

"If you can shoot someone in the fucking forehead at 35 feet TWICE, then you can shoot someone in the thigh."

"AIMING FOR THE LEGS (really not unreasonable at all seeing as most men don't have a "thigh gap" and together, the thighs are about the same size as your chest/torso, which is where they usually aim, if not for the head, which is obviously a harder target)"

I don't think you can reasonably refute that in good conscious.





By the way, maybe one of our British friends can explain how the cops in England manage to do just fine dealing with "knife-WEILDERS" without carrying lethal firearms................

[Riddles]

usually tasers i think.

also I thought police were trained to shoot to kill, not saying this was deserved or w/e, but they are trained not to shoot to injure right? also, if you shoot a guy in the thigh they can still die, femoral arteries and all that....

[Forum]

By the way, maybe one of our British friends can explain how the cops in England manage to do just fine dealing with "knife-WEILDERS" without carrying lethal firearms................

Tasers and beating sticks. If someone is known to be carrying weapons they send out the armed units though

[DrGatineau]

usually tasers i think.

also I thought police were trained to shoot to kill, not saying this was deserved or w/e, but they are trained not to shoot to injure right? also, if you shoot a guy in the thigh they can still die, femoral arteries and all that....

They are trained to shoot to kill but that doesn't mean they should be. As NWJ put it - "top down viable alternatives for defense tactics" are needed.

True, they could still die if shot in the leg, but significantly less chance. Combine that with rubber bullets - decreases that chance even further.

[wub]

Also on the inside of a policeman's helmet at the top is a hand grip. If required, the hat can be removed and used as a shield/blunt instrument as the material is stab proof.

That's why they have that small crest at the top.

[Forum]

It's not the movies, if someone's coming at them with a knife or reaching for a gun they're not going to drop them with well placed shots to the shin

[Phigure]

You and Jags could be, like, partners. You guys would get a call, violent/potentially intoxicated man with a knife, just committed armed robbery, threatening people on the street. Phig'd calmly call to Jags for the teddy bear, you two would sit on the curb, cuddling the bear. The crazy with the knife would come over, sit on the curb with you guys. You'd pass over the teddy bear, he'd hold it, feel the softness, you guys would talk about his childhood, discuss the proletariat, the guy would apologize for threatening people with the knife. A hug or two, wipe a away a few tears. The guy would go back to the store, return the stolen items, offer to help out around the store for the rest of the month to make up for scaring the staff. After a couple of weeks, the crazy guy would be a good worker, and they'd offer him a job. He'd work nights until some night a guy comes in with a gun and is like, give me all your forty's or I'll blow your fucking head off. The formerly crazy guy will take out the teddy bear that he keeps under the counter as a reminder, give it to the guy with the gun. They'll both crack open a forty, laugh it off, talk about how hard it is for a black man to catch a break. They decide to go halfsies on a lotto ticket, the next day their numbers are called, rather than splitting their winnings, they decide to build a boy's and girl's club in the neighborhood. After school the kids can come play video games, basketball, make beats, rock a mic or two. Over the years, the facility produces several internationally successful Call of Duty teams, a few guys make it into the NBA, some kids discover house and techno, and we have the fourth rebirth of the form. The facility raises property values in the area. All of the black low income families now own million+ dollar properties which they use to leverage tuition to the best private schools and ultimately the most prestigious Ph.D. programs for their children. One bright student theorizes for his doctorate a way to harness zero point energy. This leads to an end to climate change, the unequal distribution of resources, and the pharmaceutical industry. Ultimately, time and space are open to us, and we move out into the galaxy and finally the broader universe. With us, we carry dubstep, which is a big hit amongst the cosmos, and humans are lauded as worthy companions in the continuum of life.

All of this because of a coupla beat cops with a heart (and a teddy bear) did the right thing.

That is deranged, and is how you, phig and jags sound when you talk about how the police should handle people charging (and briskly walking) at them with a knife.

retreat into their vehicle?

Haha, yes!

Definitely retreat back into their vehicle, and then retreat back to the police station for a game of darts. I am with you, brother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... n_argument

[DrGatineau]

just btw....

i don't have any ill feelings towards any of yall over this. i don't think any of you are like perverse or deranged or racist or anything just cause we don't see eye to eye on a certain issue.

much love for all of yuh


also NWJ you live in a bit of a liberal bubble which i think is why you're sick of people who cry racist over everything, and I live in a bit of a conservative bubble which is why I'm sick of people who defend cops under any and all circumstances, so....

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[nowaysj]

You can't even begin to understand how ironic it is that I'm the one that has been cast into the role of defending the police here on the snh.

Man, fuck the the police.

I just think that this initial, and this subsequent incident are not good foundations for the national discussion of these issues. I do sincerely believe that the spinning of these incidents (really, Trayvon/Zimmerman and MB) has been for political reasons. I think it is a trap that works on many levels, inflaming racial tension, increasing hostility towards the police making peaceful or community oriented policing more difficult, while invalidating the assertions of blacks regarding police maltreatment when the facts of these cases come to light supporting the police's or victim's (in the case of Zimmerman) claims.

Ultimately Ferguson will lead to a greater military presence on our streets, more race division, more class division, and just generally a weaker nation. I don't think it is accidental.

I know you guys, the protesters, the rioters are coming from a good place. The outrage that you guys express is evidence of your sense of justice, a desire for rightness, and that is a good thing. Imagine a people that didn't really care. But you guys are incautious of the information that you take in and accept as fact. There is very heavy manipulation going on, the Ferguson protestors are a tool, you guys are tools, your compassion is being used against us.

[DrGatineau]

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you about the bigger picture. I see the writing on the wall. I think the worst thing that will undoubtedly (in my mind) come out of this incident is that racial grievances will be looked at with skepticism for decades to come. Al Sharpton is the poster boy for this kind of shit. Nobody (at least the conservatives in my town) takes him serious after the Tawana Brawley incident. it's been over 25 years and people still haven't forgiven him for that. Now, I guarantee that if he was a white civil rights leader, people (conservatives) would be much more willing to give him a second chance, but this is the reality - anything that Sharpton touches is automatically looked upon with skepticism.

And I believe that the system is designed to filter out incidents that would actually make a difference if they were discussed in the national media landscape. The only incidents that get this kind of press attention are the ones where the police (or George Zimmerman) definitely did something wrong, so it's enough to get people fired up, but we can't quite prove it, it's almost there but it just doesn't reach the amount of outrage that would cause real change. Instead, the outcome will be further blame and doubt for black victims, protesters, and civil rights leaders.

It wouldn't surprise me if the conservative media is complicit in pushing these stories to the top because they know the outcome will be not guilty and they want blacks to be looked at as the race-who-cried-wolf. Not necessarily because they're racist and they just hate black people (although many of them clearly do), but because they can use that to further disenfranchise and exploit poor minorities economically, socially, and politically ("If you want to vote, then get off your couch and get an ID you lazy fucks," says Bill O'Reilley).



HOWEVER, that says nothing about the facts of the case. I still believe that police in this country are out of fucking control and that they need serious top down reform. How bout this - normal police can only carry rubber bullets and they are taught to aim for the thighs UNLESS the "criminal" is pointing a gun at them. If they have a gun pointed at them, then sure, shoot them in the fucking face, but neither of these victims had guns. Is that too much to ask?

[nowaysj]

Is that too much to ask?

Unfortunately, yes.

More and more people are going to be joining the ranks of the destitute. There are going to be huge swaths of our population that have absolutely nothing to lose, and they are going to be armed. The police and military are preparing for that right now.

And Sharpton is scum, his history is darker than I think you realize.

[DrGatineau]

Is that too much to ask?

Unfortunately, yes.

More and more people are going to be joining the ranks of the destitute. There are going to be huge swaths of our population that have absolutely nothing to lose, and they are going to be armed. The police and military are preparing for that right now.

?????

And Sharpton is scum, his history is darker than I think you realize.

maybe so, but I have no doubt that Fox News and the conservatives I know would have been just as critical and unforgiving of Martin Luther King if they existed when he was alive.

[nowaysj]

You'll love this one.

[hubb]

I know that in the unicorn rainbow country of denmark, a knife is not enough to warrant a shot. Instead the officer will have to do with the risk of the knife MAYBE hitting the tactical padding (or whatever that is called - it's lighter than a bulletproof vest) and dealing with that outcome.
You only pull out a gun when there's a gun out in the open. The most important aspect is how they shield the public from the danger.

[wub]

Meanwhile, in Iceland;

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-03/i ... ts-history

From December, but I doubt the statistic has changed.

[nowaysj]