Hi-Hat - swingy groove help

[serox]

Nope. "Swung 16th notes" means the time grid is shifted so that every second 16th note is slightly delayed. So instead of this:

1-------e-------&-------a-------2-------e-------&-------a-------3-------e-------&-------a-------4-------e-------&-------a-------

You get this:

1----------e----&----------a----2----------e----&----------a----3----------e----&----------a----4----------e----&----------a----

(counting the standard way for 16ths, ie 1-e-and-a-2-e-and-a-3-e-and-a-4-e-and-a)

The amount of swing is how much the grid is wonked. 0% swing is the top drawing. I'm not sure whether it depends on the DAW or if there's some accepted standard, but I would guess that 100% swing is where the length ratio is 75% : 25% as any more than that wouldn't be very musically meaningful.

BTW, the same applies for all note divisions, so with 8th note swing you leave out the "e" and "a" and delay the "and" instead.

So how do you set the grid to do this or do you just leave it on 16th's?

To me those tracks all sound like they are quantized and the hats are done on straight 16ths. The swing feel to them comes from the vel/pitch and samples used. Are you telling me they then use a swing button to move things around also?

[Depone]

Nah swin turns quanitze off n goes all Burial on your shit.

I thought it was possible to have swing without removing quantize.

I want to know the difference between swung 16ths and straight 16ths! if they are all on a grid I dont see what is different.

Straight 16ths - http://www.mediafire.com/?t3jiaeyumjd

Swung 16ths by aprox 60% - http://www.mediafire.com/?eiwnyyekzzx

[serox]

Straight 16ths - http://www.mediafire.com/?t3jiaeyumjd

Swung 16ths by aprox 60% - http://www.mediafire.com/?eiwnyyekzzx

Where is the 60% coming from? is this done by using a swing button?

[staticcast]

Nope. "Swung 16th notes" means the time grid is shifted so that every second 16th note is slightly delayed. So instead of this:

1-------e-------&-------a-------2-------e-------&-------a-------3-------e-------&-------a-------4-------e-------&-------a-------

You get this:

1----------e----&----------a----2----------e----&----------a----3----------e----&----------a----4----------e----&----------a----

(counting the standard way for 16ths, ie 1-e-and-a-2-e-and-a-3-e-and-a-4-e-and-a)

The amount of swing is how much the grid is wonked. 0% swing is the top drawing. I'm not sure whether it depends on the DAW or if there's some accepted standard, but I would guess that 100% swing is where the length ratio is 75% : 25% as any more than that wouldn't be very musically meaningful.

BTW, the same applies for all note divisions, so with 8th note swing you leave out the "e" and "a" and delay the "and" instead.

So how do you set the grid to do this or do you just leave it on 16th's?

To me those tracks all sound like they are quantized and the hats are done on straight 16ths. The swing feel to them comes from the vel/pitch and samples used. Are you telling me they then use a swing button to move things around also?

Yeah. There's two ways - either you leave the grid unwonked and you move the notes by hand so that every other 16th is slightly delayed, or you quantize to the grid and use your DAW to do the swinging for you by wonking the grid behind the scenes (pretty much every DAW has this facility, sometimes named differently - "global swing", "groove templates", etc...).

Those tracks most definitely do not have straight 16ths. Swung 16th hihat and snare rhythms are pretty much the backbone of all UK garage tracks and a lot of dubstep.

[staticcast]

A quick way of doing it "by hand" is actually just quantizing, but adjusting the quantize settings to the type of swing you want. In Ableton, "quantize options", "1/16T", "amount = whatever", Quantize. This is the destructive way of doing it - as in, the actual position of the notes in the MIDI clip is altered.

[serox]

Yeah. There's two ways - either you leave the grid unwonked and you move the notes by hand so that every other 16th is slightly delayed, or you quantize to the grid and use your DAW to do the swinging for you by wonking the grid behind the scenes (pretty much every DAW has this facility, sometimes named differently - "global swing", "groove templates", etc...).

Those tracks most definitely do not have straight 16ths. Swung 16th hihat and snare rhythms are pretty much the backbone of all UK garage tracks and a lot of dubstep.

I have read interviews where they said it was quantized 16ths but maybe I am wrong:/

I thought it sounds like it is quantized 16ths too but they put in ghost hits at a low velocity and those are moved slightly off grid.

[staticcast]

Yeah. There's two ways - either you leave the grid unwonked and you move the notes by hand so that every other 16th is slightly delayed, or you quantize to the grid and use your DAW to do the swinging for you by wonking the grid behind the scenes (pretty much every DAW has this facility, sometimes named differently - "global swing", "groove templates", etc...).

Those tracks most definitely do not have straight 16ths. Swung 16th hihat and snare rhythms are pretty much the backbone of all UK garage tracks and a lot of dubstep.

I have read interviews where they said it was quantized 16ths but maybe I am wrong:/

I thought it sounds like it is quantized 16ths too but they put in ghost hits at a low velocity and those are moved slightly off grid.

I'm 100% certain. They probably are quantized, but definitely to a swung 16th grid instead of a straight 16th grid. You can quantize and still have swing, it all depends what grid you quantize to.

You generally wouldn't have straight and swung 16ths playing at the same time; it would just sound like someone's playing something wrong. Straight 8ths and swung 16ths though, sure, because a swung 16th patterns still contains straight 8ths.

[Pedro Sánchez]

It's easy to setup in cubase 4 to 5

play in or draw your midi then in the quantize setup, 16th grid, add the swing amount then apply & store it as a preset, then every time you want to add that swing, select it from the quatize drop down and just hit 'q'.

[serox]

Thanks static_cast , this has helped fill the void:D

If anyone can point me in the right direction of how this is done in FL that would be great. Not at home now to have a look but will do asap.

[staticcast]

No worries bro.

I couldn't be arsed to watch the whole video but this is probably what you're looking for in FL:

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-quant ... io-236186/

[MidnightMassDubstep]

[serox]

No worries bro.

I couldn't be arsed to watch the whole video but this is probably what you're looking for in FL:

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-quant ... io-236186/

explains why all those hours, days etc I was not getting the swing right without using swing buttons!

[Japanese Narco Girl]

you can get swing without using any swing buttons! they are useful but sometimes if you are thinking of a specific swing rhythm you are better just programming it, you can programme swing with quantise still on.
and you can use swing rhythms in any instrument, pitched or non pitched... see dizzee rascals fix up look sharp - that catchy kick and snare beat starts off swung.


also this:

swing is mainly coming from the kick and snare in this tune but the guitar supports it too.
for dubstep swing works best with the hi hats because the kick and snare usually need to be more powerful and have more impact, rather than rolling like the hats or shakers.

[Depone]

also this:

swing is mainly coming from the kick and snare in this tune but the guitar supports it too.
.

Yessss! This is an amazing example of how wrong i can be sometimes. I Love drummers who can 'stay behind the beat' but perfectly in time. another example is lead Zeppelins drummer, he seems to 'drag' his beats but is perfect for the track.

[staticcast]

I know I'm being pedantic, but...

you can get swing without using any swing buttons! they are useful but sometimes if you are thinking of a specific swing rhythm you are better just programming it, you can programme swing with quantise still on.
and you can use swing rhythms in any instrument, pitched or non pitched... see dizzee rascals fix up look sharp - that catchy kick and snare beat starts off swung.

....not really swing. There's a lot of (probably deliberate) random fluctuations in the timing which add to the groove, but overall it's pretty straight. You could play straight 16ths over the top and it wouldn't sound out of place.

also this:

swing is mainly coming from the kick and snare in this tune but the guitar supports it too.

Wouldn't really call this swing either... I guess it kind of is, but it's not really. It's in 12/8, which I guess you could loosely describe as swing (I mean, swing is like the first and last note of every triplet), but really it's just a time signature that's counted in threes.

Lots of big-band stuff (er, the fact that they play Swing is a bit of a giveaway) is swung. Walk This Way by Aerosmith is swung. Pretty much all 2-step garage is swung.

[yamaz]

Right on this is all really good info! Thx everyone!

Ok so what I hear though besides the swung groove is what sounds like a dance between hi hats....like one playing off the other, or like one hat leading up to another hat and then continuing after it...

What is the technique behind this?

[Japanese Narco Girl]

also this:

swing is mainly coming from the kick and snare in this tune but the guitar supports it too.
.

Yessss! This is an amazing example of how wrong i can be sometimes. I Love drummers who can 'stay behind the beat' but perfectly in time. another example is lead Zeppelins drummer, he seems to 'drag' his beats but is perfect for the track.

I think you were right in saying it about dubstep though - at least with dancefloor stuff, messing with kick and snare placement can fuck up the djs mix and danceablity of it too. Saying that though, if a rhythm is repeated enough, you can dance to it and get a feel for it. the thing about dance music is you do want the rhythms to be easy to catch on to fast and dance to, which is why a simple kick and snare pattern is often the best choice for dubstep cos it keeps the backbone of the beat going so the hi hats are free to keep it rolling and flowing nicely... in my opinion.

at the end of the day muddy waters is a badman

I know I'm being pedantic, but...

you can get swing without using any swing buttons! they are useful but sometimes if you are thinking of a specific swing rhythm you are better just programming it, you can programme swing with quantise still on.
and you can use swing rhythms in any instrument, pitched or non pitched... see dizzee rascals fix up look sharp - that catchy kick and snare beat starts off swung.

....not really swing. There's a lot of (probably deliberate) random fluctuations in the timing which add to the groove, but overall it's pretty straight. You could play straight 16ths over the top and it wouldn't sound out of place.

also this:

swing is mainly coming from the kick and snare in this tune but the guitar supports it too.

Wouldn't really call this swing either... I guess it kind of is, but it's not really. It's in 12/8, which I guess you could loosely describe as swing (I mean, swing is like the first and last note of every triplet), but really it's just a time signature that's counted in threes.

Lots of big-band stuff (er, the fact that they play Swing is a bit of a giveaway) is swung. Walk This Way by Aerosmith is swung. Pretty much all 2-step garage is swung.

both of the examples i gave are swung rhythms. swing can occur in one small section of one bar and it is still a swung rhythm. see my other post which shows notated swing. im not talking about the whole feel of the drum beat in the dizzee song - im talking about the first two kick hits and the first snare hit.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Right on this is all really good info! Thx everyone!

Ok so what I hear though besides the swung groove is what sounds like a dance between hi hats....like one playing off the other, or like one hat leading up to another hat and then continuing after it...

What is the technique behind this?

I think you are referring to what is often known as ghost snares and it usually just as you describe, another snappy snare or soft perc sound at low velocity.

[jamez3]

Interesting article with quote from El-b and MJ Cole about how they do swing.
http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com/2 ... -jazz.html

[staticcast]

both of the examples i gave are swung rhythms. swing can occur in one small section of one bar and it is still a swung rhythm. see my other post which shows notated swing. im not talking about the whole feel of the drum beat in the dizzee song - im talking about the first two kick hits and the first snare hit.

Just re-read your earlier post. I don't wanna come across as a prick, but I spent quite a lot of years playing jazz drums semi-professionally and I know a swung pattern when I hear one. Your clave example is actually all straight. Latin patterns are pretty much all straight. Swing is generally understood to be the first and last triplet of a triplet-based pattern, like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... e_feel.png

In big band charts, hard swing is often written as a dotted eighth + one 16th, but that's generally for notation purposes (it's easier to read), and it's not how the drummer actually plays it, unless he wants to REALLY push the swing for rhythmic effect.

When a rhythm is swung, generally the note division that's swung is the smallest present in the arrangement. For example, in swung jazz, you don't generally get anyone playing melodies with rhythmic content more subdivided than 8th notes or 8th note triplets (apart from wanky solos), so the 8th notes are swung (as in, the quarter notes stay where they are, and every second 8th note is pushed back). In dubstep, you get lots of 16th note patterns, so we use 16th note swing - the 8th notes stay where they are, and every other 16th note is pushed back.

In the Dizzee Rascal track, nothing is pushed back. If you consider the first two kick drum notes to be swung, then it would have to be quarter note swing (because it'd be the second 8th note that's delayed), and that can't be the case because there are loads of straight 8th notes all over the place in that track. It's just a straight track and the second kick drum is on a 16th note division. As I said, you could play 16ths on a hihat on top of it and it'd sound fine.

For more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_feel