Arizona Congresswoman shot in Tuscon

[esfandyar]

yea, not sure the specifics amongst deaths pertaining legality of the weapon.

I just remember the number being close to like 11,600 something.

[noam]

agreed, but i will say that the 99.99% of people who legally purchase firearms are not violent criminals

definitely. the usa does however have the highest amounts of death by firearms though in the world bar none. something like 12000 deaths per year.

for sure, but what percentage of those deaths were from people with legally owned guns? i'd wager a large sum that most of them are illegal guns, gang violence and whatnot... and in that case, making guns harder to get is equivalent to the govt making drugs harder to get (as in, a complete failure)

you serious???

the fact in the previous post esfandyar illustrated the point that america has the highest rate of death by firearm in the world and you believe that other countries keep this gun-death rate down how? magic?

you want to stop deaths by guns, you a) stop selling them b) raid and bust every gang affiliated person, known criminal, have gun amnesties, make the laws incredibly strict on possession of firearms

america has a real problem with this issue and it seemingly has a weird place mentally for some - the right to own a gun is NOT a natural right, the constitution is wrong and that is a fundamental flaw in it; a non-natural right which is 200 years old at some point must face revision due to context

and @Esfandyar: crime might be low in Phoenix but its quite apparent that its not low in other area's of your country, if you want to stop gun crime being a massive problem for the most developed country in the world then number one is: ban them. otherwise you must accept that crimes like this are not only possible in the future but inevitable, that people who lose loved ones and family members might possibly not lose them if there was a ban, that the purpose of 'protection' by owning a gun in more cases than not will end up with someone getting shot as opposed to someone getting robbed, that not everyone needs a hunting rifle, that a ban on guns has only not taken place because history, tradition and politics has got in the way of a fundamental and self-evident truth to do with guns and violent crime in general which is that if you give people tools they will inevitably get used and if you dont have the tools to use you cant use them.

you want to stop gun crime - you ban guns. it really, really is that simple

[ruckus49]

all illegal firearms were legal at some point! and yeah, I agree about the constitution. People here worship it like a sacred cow, forgetting that it took 19 amendments to get to the point where women were allowed to vote!

[knell]

wow, noam, you're showing your ignorance. sounding like a true politician, here.

when you outlaw guns, only the outlaws have guns.

just because America produces a lot of guns, and has a large gang population, you think that means that banning them will solve anything?

seriously. seriously, man... if they're banned in America, they'll just be made elsewhere and smuggled in, thats how making things illegal works over here. To think otherwise is ignorant at best, foolish at worst.

go up to the average rural texan and tell him you're about to take his gun, and then report back with how making them illegal is going for ya.

so in your little dream world where all guns are banned and everything is all gravy, some punk comes up to me with an illegal firearm and i have no means of protecting myself because laws were too busy telling me otherwise and im trying to be an upstanding citizen?

nope, i stay with my pistol, never used it outside of a range, and only keep it for defense and in case of anarchy. im a hardcore liberal but if you try and take my equalizer away from me it'll be a hard struggle.

tl;dr banning guns would simply be the most retarded thing to do, no matter how many statistics you try and blind yourself with.. the strategy you're looking for is tougher regulation in states that breeze past them. im not a criminal and i will never attack anyone, so telling me what to do and what not to do is an attack on a freedom, whether its in the constitution or not. if you ban guns you give the cops and criminals the upper hand.

[deadly_habit]

not to mention most gangs are better armed than the law enforcement who are supposed to stop them
most gun violence is from illegal weapons
gun control just doesn't work as it's not exactly hard to get illegal firearms with how porous our inbound boarders are, not to mention how much of an industry it is for the gangs and cartels
banning legal firearms or stricter control on registration side for those who do it right will do lil to nil to curb gun violence

[tyson]

In my state it is illegal to sell, deliver, or transfer any firearm to:

* A minor under the age of 18.
* A convicted felon, who has not had his civil rights restored.
* A person who has been convicted of a misdemeanor involving violence or found guilty, except for insanity, within the previous four years.
* A person listed in the Health Division Registry.
* A person who has been committed to the Dept. of Human Services.
* A person who has any outstanding felony warrants for arrest.
* A person who is free on any form of pretrial release for a felony.

All dealers, pawnbrokers or otherwise must keep a record of every handgun sold. This record shall contain the time, date and place of the sale or trade, the name of the salesperson making the sale or trade, the make, model and manufacturer's number on the handgun.

The purchaser must sign his name and affix his address to the register. Thumbprints are taken. The purchaser must present clear evidence of his identity.

A copy of the record must be mailed to the local police and state police on the day of the sale for a record check.

Because of all this criminals buy guns illegally and they aren't going to stop doing so if they are banned. They legally have guns in Canada and Mexico that could easily make their way here so even if the police raided every American household (good luck with that) all they would accomplish is taking the guns from the people who are using them legally.

Really the only reason Mexican cartels are so powerful is because drugs are illegal in the US but there is still demand so they supply. We buy the drugs, they get more powerful and kill anyone who wants to compete. Banning guns here would just give them another way to make money.

Btw, I don't own a gun, don't want a gun and I don't care that others have them around me.

[knell]

Because of all this criminals buy guns illegally and they aren't going to stop doing so if they are banned. They legally have guns in Canada and Mexico that could easily make their way here so even if the police raided every American household (good luck with that) all they would accomplish is taking the guns from the people who are using them legally.

banning legal firearms or stricter control on registration side for those who do it right will do lil to nil to curb gun violence

see, the americans know...

tell me, opposers, when has banning ANYTHING solved the problem? ever? how often does it create more harm than good?

all it would do is put criminals on higher ground, since they would have the black market resources to smuggle guns in

(the [almost in-arguably] best guns, remember, are made in ISRAEL, and if you think you're gonna get israel to stop making/ban guns, you must have the IQ of a mackerel)

[esfandyar]

It's funny because knell holds his guns when anarchy happens yet I'm anarchist haha. Ah well. I would like to respond better when I'm not at work. But again, if guns were banned he would have used some other method to do the damage. If the vigilantes and the government in all it's forms can arm, so can we. Banning weapons won't stop shit.

My point was that restricting weapons does not stop the action of violence. Actually I looked up the current stats of deaths per capita in the USA, now we are 8th.

[knell]

yes thanks esfandyar, im glad you're logical

and you're right, it is funny that i hold a gun in case of anarchy, because the farms i own and support are anarchistic democratic societies... but what i really meant is "general american public anarchy" ...as in chaos, government collapse and people running around looting and being, well... natural humans (animalistic assholes)...

in that scenario, it's the law of the gun, and i'd much rather be on the upper hand, considering i think of myself as a rational responsible human who would only defend myself and not cause any harm to anyone but antagonists who intend to cause harm

paranoid? sure, but if shit hits the fan and it really is the law of the gun, im ready... if not, my gun sits in its locked case, gathering dust... no harm done.

anyway, the technology exists, theres no way to eradicate gun use, so banning them is one step closer to a police state, among other horrible scenarios

[deadly_habit]

not to mention hunting is a valuable skill to have in cases of survival/society crumbling
you might wanna dust off said gun and keep up on your marksmanship knell
handguns in all honesty are for combat and concealment, which is why there is restrictions on them, same for assault rifles and automatic weapons
personally i'd love to own an m16 or m249 as i'm experienced with em, acurate and their hella fun to shoot period, but i can see why i can't

[RightOnTime27]

The guy is seriously messed up. Also what is he wearing on his legs?

i got a shiver when i first saw him, then I couldn't let some lol's escape when i saw the garbage bags he was wearing for pants.

[wub]

British Generalization, i salute you

That was a bit sweeping, you're right. In my defence, most of the people that are my age I've spoken to in AZ about this had a similar view on the whole thing, so it's a consensus that is at least based on something.

Oh, and a couple of them blamed Mexicans right off the bat. Go figure.

[stappard]

agreed, but i will say that the 99.99% of people who legally purchase firearms are not violent criminals

definitely. the usa does however have the highest amounts of death by firearms though in the world bar none. something like 12000 deaths per year.

for sure, but what percentage of those deaths were from people with legally owned guns? i'd wager a large sum that most of them are illegal guns, gang violence and whatnot... and in that case, making guns harder to get is equivalent to the govt making drugs harder to get (as in, a complete failure)

That not strictly true, given that drugs are not starting from a point of legality. A better example would be "making guns harder to get is equivilent to the govt making laser pens harder to get" as in, most people will stop fucking using them.

This is obviously something Americans feel strongly about, so much so that in a thread about a tragedy such as this one you're unwilling to consider that maybe there is a link between high gun crime and the fact that guns are legal. The single difference between the UK and America in terms of gun law is that they aren't legal here. And gun crime is a lot lower.

I can "blind myself with statistics" because I have statistics to blind myself with.. The perspective that "you can't ban them because nobody would listen" is a horrible one. Good government takes people to make unpopular decisions that are objectively good for the country. Now you're sounding like a politician..

[deadly_habit]

actually the usa is the 8th highest murder rate with firearms per capita in the world, the UK is the 32nd
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita
people don't seem to take into acount how large the us is and population when they spew these stats about

[wub]

actually the usa is the 8th highest murder rate with firearms per capita in the world, the UK is the 32nd
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita
people don't seem to take into acount how large the us is and population when they spew these stats about

Case in point - Macedonia @ no. 15

[stappard]

actually the usa is the 8th highest murder rate with firearms per capita in the world, the UK is the 32nd
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita
people don't seem to take into acount how large the us is and population when they spew these stats about

I had NO idea thailand was that high up. Mental

[knell]

That not strictly true, given that drugs are not starting from a point of legality. A better example would be "making guns harder to get is equivilent to the govt making laser pens harder to get" as in, most people will stop fucking using them.

This is obviously something Americans feel strongly about, so much so that in a thread about a tragedy such as this one you're unwilling to consider that maybe there is a link between high gun crime and the fact that guns are legal. The single difference between the UK and America in terms of gun law is that they aren't legal here. And gun crime is a lot lower.

I can "blind myself with statistics" because I have statistics to blind myself with.. The perspective that "you can't ban them because nobody would listen" is a horrible one. Good government takes people to make unpopular decisions that are objectively good for the country. Now you're sounding like a politician..

gonna go ahead and say i agree with you...

high gun crime and legality... of course there is a link there. but, you have to factor in the fact that populations differ between the UK and the US, and that the gangs that are over here are far more serious than those that are over there... you have no idea what you're dealing with... we're talking about a population of 60 million versus a population of 307 million (mostly urban)

really, you dont understand how dense populations work...

"you can't ban them because no one will listen" ... fantastic point, not a horrible one... give me one instance in which making anything illegal produced a greater good, and i will give you a hundred in which it failed... really, do you want to roll a dice where the odds are .01 to 6 ?

silly, silly... you mean to tell me that no one in the UK has a gun...?

what's that, you say? someone does? at least one person aside from the police owns a firearm?

'tis a shame that they have something to wipe you off the face of the earth, leaving you defenseless.... because of laws, now, isn't it..?

im sorry, i truly am, that the one person willing to rob you blind holds the upper hand because of their connections..

oh well... it's for the greater good of society... when only the criminals have guns... keep calm and carry on, then...

[fretn]

Simple, guns belong with officials. The rest is just plain bullshit, you really don't need a gun.

[deadly_habit]

since were chatting guns, i'm looking for a good bolt action rifle that won't break the bank. any suggestions?

[knell]

actually the usa is the 8th highest murder rate with firearms per capita in the world, the UK is the 32nd
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita
people don't seem to take into acount how large the us is and population when they spew these stats about

I had NO idea thailand was that high up. Mental

and thailand's gun policies, for reference: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121 ... -thailand/