DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by threnody » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:09 pm

nowaysj wrote:Are there musical and nonmusical people, and if so, are the nonmusical ever capable of producing quality music through hard work and dedication, or will there always be something lacking in their work?

Oh yeah, hey what's up?
Great question! Well i spend all my day teaching people how to make music so I probably am in a good position to answer this one....

When i teach how to make music i dissect music down to elements and try to teach a forumula...a 32 bar intro, 49 bar main body, breakdown, main body 2, outro...using melody, bass, drums, pads.... I have studied music since i was young so i can easily be analytical about how sounds are put together. For the students who maybe haven't had musical training breaking things down to a formula can help them to write tracks.....

Now a formula alone is only the outline of a track...you have to paint in what happens in the melodic, rhythmic etc parts... So although you can be formulaic about structure and instrumentation i think that the creativity comes with what the musical parts do within that structure. Also when you know structures you can manipulate them whilst still making sure your tracks have momentum and progression.

Now i think anyone can learn how to structure a piece of music and anyone can learn how to use music software and also anyone can know what musical layers should be used to have a full track. This stuff is maths rather than music tho. Non musical people can easily create structured sounds.

Music is such a massive and indepth thing. Maybe people could compose a melody but not arrange it the parts into a full song... or maybe they can synthesise brilliant sounds from scratch but not write melodies.... or maybe they can compose and arrange a great piece of music but have no idea about how to engineer things to sound polished, clean and big (whilst still having some rawness). Back in the 60s-90s you had a team of people working on a track and each person would have their specialist area - editor, arranger, composer, lyricist, performer, studio engineer, mastering engineer - however these days you have yourself and a laptop/computer. Computer musicians are expected to do everything and i think it is very few people who can do everything well. I can listen to music by people selling thousands of records and think...they should have put variation in the drums there; or the snare is too dry; or that second drop needs some variation; or that sound is too resonant. So computer musicians need to be everything and so now i don't think it is even down to musical and non-musical people...rather you have to be musical, mathematical, scientific and creative to consistently produce good work on your own....
Also prior to dance music you had bands where each person played their own instrument... now we have orchestras at our fingertips and we have to write the drums, melody, harmony etc.... You can get deep into music...even down to building your own synths on Reaktor/MAXMSP. Obviously you can spend all day writing a great sound but not doing anything with it so there has to be a balance but i think very often people just are eager to get stuff out so they sit down Reason and have a track done in a day, put it up on Soundcloud and forget about it....I don't think that makes them non-musical but it does mean the are not embracing enough of the facets of music to produce quality and timeless music....It is hard and takes time to develop tracks... I never finish a track in under 6 months... although the basics of the structure and instrumentation may be done in two 8 hour sessions it takes time to develop the track... you have to listen to music in different places and environments and let the sounds live with you...play it in clubs & on the radio...at night and day etc....

So focussing on the question. If we treat music as the composition side of things then I think there are some people who are musical and others who aren't however this is not down to education or the ability to play an instrument... I have always written music and always played instruments but Succulent-C (my best mate who has stuff out on UK Trends) has never studied music and had never written music before he met me...infact the first time i met him i was shocked as he couldn't even whistle in tune... i thought he was tone-def however i taught him the basics of music making and he is obviously a 'musical' person as he picked it up quickly and took naturally to writing rhythms and melodies and has made some great tracks.... For his releases I have done some additional engineering (compression etc) but as far as musical ideas go he can do it.

So i spend all day teaching people to write music but it is a very few who apply creativity to their music...often you get 20 wobble bass tracks at 140, 10 housey tracks, and a lot of very basic tracks in no particular genre that are nothing more than melody, drums and bass strucutred exactly using the forumula i give. Sometimes you can see talent and people really taking it to the next level and applying creative ideas to their tracks (or their tracks are basic but good and i will give them ideas about how they could develop the ideas).

Even for the most musical person it is a constant learning experience, how to write melodies, play melodies, write rhythms, engineer, master, structure, little production techniques, using FX and automation creatively... if you are not constantly learning new things and having new ideas then there is no point.

it seems to me that in 2011 if you like music then you then write music and i do think that the fact all software can be downloaded quickly and easily is dangerous generally... there are less people to just be fans and enjoy music. I love football but i would never try and be a pro! Because anyone can pick up reason, download some samples and refills and make a passable pastiche of dubstep/drum and bass/UKF etc it is meaning that things get formulaic quickly and there is saturation in every genre. Back when you needed to buy synths, hefty computers and software you didn't get everyone thinking that they can make it as an artist....Now i do think that it is potentially brilliant that anyone can download a bit of software and make music but only if people put in enough time to creating their music, let it ferment & always look to push themselves and innovate...even if the innovations sound awful for the first 3 years of producing at least they will be doing something different... you have to learn how to use software and then develop your own unique sound and until then you shouldn't try and be famous....otherwise we will get people who have not even had time to discover whether they are musical or non-musical and there will always be something missing from their music (originality, creativity, production values, variation etc...).
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by nowaysj » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:23 pm

tldr
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by nowaysj » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:23 pm

:cornlol:
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by threnody » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:33 pm

nowaysj wrote:tldr
hhaha to summarise.

You can bring a horse to water but can't teach it to drink.
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by nowaysj » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:48 pm

:D:

I have some thoughts on this, I'm at about 20 hours right now and my monitor looks like someone smeared it with petroleum jelly.
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by Tama Wits » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:52 pm

man i wish you were my tutor, mine hasn't a clue what he's banging on about most the time

can't think of any questions atm, but nice one for doing this

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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by legend4ry » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:15 pm

That last post was an excellent read and summarised what a lot of people think but don't act on.. (I have been guilty to this).
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by serox » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:01 pm

Tama Wits wrote:
can't think of any questions atm, but nice one for doing this
This ^

I dont have the questions but I am sure if I did this fella would have the answers.
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by SpungE » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:50 pm

Nice one definately taking the whole 'spend a long time on a track thing' on board.

Edit; guess I'll add some Q fodder.

- What's the best tip you ever got?
- What's one thing you wish someone had told/taught you (in terms of production)?

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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by Kamex » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:09 pm

nicee :)

- Where do you think dubstep will go in the next couple years?

- what advice would you give to someone who wants to produce dubstep?

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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by cartoonluv3k » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:35 am

lovin the Q+A !! u got any news on the website yet? i know ur almost done and i just cant wait!! hahaha <3 :corndance:

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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by mks » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:55 am

threnody wrote:if you are not constantly learning new things and having new ideas then there is no point.
:W:

Nice one.

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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by threnody » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:55 am

Fbac wrote:Thanks for the read =) great questions and answers.

Where do you see vinyl going? What do you think could be inproved about traktor or digital djing / or what are you looking forward to about digital djing?
Vinyl is still the most physical way to mix music... i'm fortunate that when i started DJing it was all done on Vinyl so i got some 1210s, spent a year learning how to beatmatch and learnt core DJ skills.... Now that computer programmes do a lot of it for you i think people lose out on skills like beatmatching. Nowadays if i was starting to DJ from scratch I don't know if i would invest in 1210s tho... They look great, are weighty and are a great physical way to mix however as digital DJing evolves there will be more and more features that you miss by just having decks. I used to only DJ on vinyl but now I use Traktor for my radio show and CDJs out in public....

So where is vinyl going? Well it looks like the only people buying vinyl are music fans...As an artist and DJ i get sent a lot of music. Once a track is released it is probably been around for a while and I am always searching for the new thing to play so therefore i would only buy music to listen to and enjoy myself... I have got stacks of vinyl from 97 onwards, including quite a lot of early grime & dubstep but for the last 2 years i just haven't bought vinyls. I listen to music but it will either be DJs radio shows i like or albums rather than 12"s....and really the majority of music i listen to is classical (like 20th century onwards).....or my stuff!

There will always be vinyl aficionados but i can see vinyl dying out more and more - already there are a lot less labels doing vinyl and distributors - such as Z-Audio stopping doing vinyl too. It is a shame but people move with the times with their software and hardware for producing so why not do the same with DJing.... not many people writing music on Ataris and on old version of cubase for example....

In a club situation i actually prefer CDJs for mixing.... I like having the waveform on display and i like the looping features and find the jog wheel and platter really nice to use (plus no skipping when some idiot bangs into the desk!).... However the thing you lose out on with CDs is the size of a vinyl when you search for the next record to play....i burn each track to a separate CD so at least i don't have to start skipping CDs back and forth etc..i think it helps with programming a set if you can pull out 8 CDs that you think you may play for the next 15 mins rather than having to search for tracks on CDs.... i never have a set list arranged beforehand.

Now Traktor is good software and i use it for the radio show but have never used it in a club as i think it looks boring when a DJ is behind a computer screen and i'm quite physical behind the decks so i need to see my audience and interact with them rather than hide behind a screen....Also i find it really difficult to programme sets if i am behind a computer screen...it only works if you know what you are going to play before hand.... Even with Traktor scratch i think there is still too much looking at a screen rather than flicking through physical media.

And what features would i like added....
1. Some kind of window where you can drag prospective tracks in a dump type area
2. A feature to 'like' or 'favourite' tracks which would then drop them into a separate folder called 'DJ Box' or something.

I think that the biggest growth area for digital DJing will be interfaces to help with the workflow between computer and DJ... I would like to see greater iPad intergration potentially....
To book for a live/DJ please email threnody@threnody.co.uk

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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by threnody » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:03 am

Fbac wrote: Do you belive the general quality of sound is going down in the world?
Well like i mentioned before a track used to be worked on by a team of people each with their own speciality so therefore people could do production and FX on sounds and post-production (such as mastering)...also Analog equipment meant that sound had that warm sound.

You have to counter balance this with leaps in technology...there is so much more equipment and software available now that the quality of audio shouldn't go down. There are better pre-amps, FX, cables, synths, soundcards, audio interfaces, everything! So the general quality of sound isn't going down but the saturation of fanboys making beats and trying to push them mean that things are badly produced and sound poor....

Having said that poor sound quality can happen at a pro level as with the loudness war a few years ago where that Red Hot Chillis album was limited to such a degree that there were no dynamics. If people don't understand depth, space, dynamics, sound quality or EQing then sound quality will go down.... it comes bck again to the point that people constantly need to push themselves and learn new techniques....making sure they understand processes and treat sound with respect.
To book for a live/DJ please email threnody@threnody.co.uk

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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by threnody » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:07 pm

SpungE wrote:Nice one definately taking the whole 'spend a long time on a track thing' on board.

Edit; guess I'll add some Q fodder.

- What's the best tip you ever got?
- What's one thing you wish someone had told/taught you (in terms of production)?
Two good questions....

1. A tip which has always stuck with me was when you cut a sample you can put a little fade in at the start and end to get rid of any clicks and also if you do a fade out and then apply another fade out on top yo get a more natural fade out. ..... Probably the person who has been most helpful over the years is Barry Lynn (Boxcutter).... When i sent him tracks he would actually give me some superb feedback which got me thinking in new ways about progression and development throughout the tracks.... like treating each element as a part to variate, experiment with and go on a journey with....not being afraid of change lots of aspects and really go places with a track. So not a tip as such but a mindset to apply to my music after the basics are down....

2. This is quite tricky as i have always had training on how to read music, play instruments and analyse music however all the computer music has been stuff I worked out myself... i worked out how to use cubase, synthesise, structure tunes etc... it has all been a massive process (and is ongoing!). So production-wise there is nothing really that i wish i had been shown as the process of learning about how to do it has been invaluable. I suppose i wish that someone had taught me cubase more during my degree (Music & Music Tech) as i looked composition techniques and how to build synths with Reaktor but had no real training in Cubase....At that time the only music software I had used was Cool Edit Pro (an audio editor) and i didn't know 'Snap to grid' existed so it took ages to line up audio blocks.
To book for a live/DJ please email threnody@threnody.co.uk

Releases on:-
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by threnody » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:08 pm

cartoonluv3k wrote:lovin the Q+A !! u got any news on the website yet? i know ur almost done and i just cant wait!! hahaha <3 :corndance:
Website will be up and finished next week with some new mixes, free tunes and other goodies.... http://www.threnody.co.uk i will post when it is active.
To book for a live/DJ please email threnody@threnody.co.uk

Releases on:-
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by Fbac » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:18 pm

threnody wrote: treat sound with respect.
:W:

wow another great read :) thanks again for doing this!

i dont want to take up anyone elses chance to asks q's , so il ask an A or B one if thats not asking to much.

Do you think an aspiring producer given access to 2 yrs of university quality sound equipment should do his dissertation so that.
A) They end up with some finished, properly masterd tracks that there able to put on there musical cv for work in the industry.
B) They look into Tangible-musical-user-interfaces in aiding special education schools teaching abstract concepts (Justice, love)

Thanks again for your time, looking forward to the website :4:
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by Matthew-B » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:35 am

1. Photo of your studio/setup
2. Screenshot of your track in DAW
3. I like your drums, what are your general tips on drums? Where do you get samples, what packs? How do you write it.

:)

"Consciousness Is Exploding" fantastic tune :5:

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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by nowaysj » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:27 pm

nowaysj wrote:tldr
I hope you realize this was a summary of your excellent response to my question. You summarized it here:
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Thanks for the response. :corndance:
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Re: DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

Post by djake » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:37 am

favorite unsigned/upcoming artists at the moment?

if you could collab with any artist (alive or dead & any genre), who would it be & why?

Great read so far :D

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