On Sexuality

[Badman Juice]

Also, mods - is it not possible to just delete troll posts so we can actually discuss things properly and learn from one another, rather than locking the entire thread? Maybe a couple of seven day bans wouldn't go amiss?

well quite...

there's different moderating styles at work to say the least. either way we're better off having a separate thread like this where there's a chance for intelligent discussion if you want to address the issues at hand, rather than having the same old WE WANT TITTIES threads

there's maybe 4-5 people out of about 40-50 regular posters who aren't capable of 'keeping it in their pants' so to speak when it comes to threads about girls

for every 1 person who might appear to lack respect for women theres fucking loads of us who are the opposite

its just elitist bullshit on behalf of mods who have been locking them threads

i actually cant believe Seckle locked that other thread, it REAKS of pompous indignation, what a fanny, LACE didn't even get a chance to tear into them

with regards intelligent discussion - the thread that got locked was being steered that way anyway!

some of these attitudes towards posters here are ridiculous

if you aren't allowed to post controversial or offensive views how do you ever weed out the bad idea's from the good?

why has THIS particular subject been deemed so offensive that the mods have to swoop in and save us from our own actions??

fuck. this.

agree with the fuck this part...

it's ironic that it got locked at the point that intelligent discussion was actually taking place but i'm sure the reason it was locked was to stop the same whinging about the tits and ass threads. i can't believe i'm having to explain this again but that rule is not just there to protect posters from seeing tits

the vast majority of threads that get locked are because noone wants to see the same circular arguments again and again and again. do we really need to have the same discussion about those threads every week? that rule isn't going to change so just drop it ffs

and once again a decent discussions been derailed

what's the problem with discussing something more than once?

[LACE]

You're so stupid, that's not what it's about. Don't think you're really capable of discussion on this level Faust, go home.

[Badman Juice]

also what constitutes a 'decent discussion' and why can't we have indecent discussions?

can I post misogynistic music?

[cosmic_surgeon]

Do you think it's fair that the affirmation of female sexuality seems to go hand in hand with a denial of male sexuality

Not at all, we are humans, we are sexual beings. Let's put our history as humanity in context. 2000 plus years of a patriarchal society, clearly we're not running the show. Because of this female sexuality has often been denied, and is mostly appreciated through a thin male perspective.

Let me explain my definition of objectification.

Objectification is when you only see one aspect or one purpose/use for a THING. I use the word 'thing' here, because I objectify an object, such as book is an object for reading, or a pretty coat i object to wear when it's cold.

Attraction is when you see the physical attributes of a PERSON and appreciate them. You may choose just to look, or you may choose to approach. When you find someone attractive you find their body/ face attractive. But you still see a person. You don't reduce their humanity to the extent that they become an object.

I cannot however, prevent other people from looking at us and thinking: "Hello tits" when they see us.

I love men, I'm attracted to them, fully fledged male members of the human race. The problem is, sometimes, men don't think of women as fully fledged member of the human race - and thats when attraction becomes objectification.

And there's more than one model of an attractive woman, sadly in popular culture there only seems to be one type of objectified woman.

Men have all sorts of idealized beauty out there, however they aren't expected to live up to them. I don't understand exactly why the impossible standard is expected from women and not men.

I was in a political philosophy discussion once, and my (female) friend was lamenting the influence these sorts of female-oriented media has on women. The tutor said "do you get these magazines mailed to you by the government or something?" I always say it to my female friends, don't read them - 'cause you know it's bad for you and it's as easy as turning away from it. But they continue to spend their pennies on these magazines, soaking it up - and that's cool 'cause it's their choice. But! the responsibility lands at their feet once they know they're being tricked. If no one bought into it, it wouldn't be a phenomenon in the first place. And aren't most of the writers for these sorts of things women too?

Also, I'd be interested to see what you have to say about the link between the objectification of women in nude images online, and the objectification of the male body manifest through the proliferation of sex toys. If you think there is an attitude which "bleeds out of" the objectification of the female body through the resources of masculine autosexuality, why is there not a similar "bleeding out" of the objectification of men through the resources of female autosexuality? I'm thinking this more general objectification we're concerned with (the attitudes of men to "real world" ladies) is perhaps down to something else entirely.

And as regards the objectification of males, what about those pop tracks with lyrics to the effect "if you can't pay for my shit, then you're not worth my time". Is that treating a man like a person with their own aims and ambitions, or is it treating them like a cash machine? And people buy these tunes so they're obviously feeling them.

[Pistonsbeneath]

You're so stupid, that's not what it's about. Don't think you're really capable of discussion on this level Faust, go home.

I think he's just playing to be fair, and i think he's most probably at home

[flyingointment]

Not objectification, u say?

Brain scans revealed that when men are shown pictures of scantily clad women, the region of the brain associated with tool use lights up.

I don't actually think just looking at pics of nude women is tantamount to sexual objectification/degradation, but this is obviously very relevant to this thread. 3za brought up a good point when he said that there's a difference between porn that actually degrades women, and just looking at pics of attractive women in the nude or sum shit.

[noam]

yea but we'll never get the chance to find out cos everything just gets locked. by seckle.

regards objectification

im sure there are argument out there to the effect that the 'male dominated society' we live in has transcended biological gender and intruded on the females psyche so thats why we have songs where women reduce men to cash machines - because objectifying is strictly a male trait

i dont believe it for a second however

re: magazines, have a look in all the aspirational mens mags out there, and there are a lot - they're exactly the same as the womens mags.

we have the everyman's hero - things like Carling ads etc.

so do women

you're a fool to think that advertising plays one hand; it plays them all, dutifully appealing to mass stereotypes with wide reaching boundaries that snare as many people as possible

sexuality is the number one snare - it represents a single facet of peoples lives but everyone gets so caught up in it, it becomes so important

like genevieve said - its just double standards to accuse one for being shallow when 'all you want is to be appreciated for your personality' (not aimed at anyone)

as with anything, theres sensible levels of admiration/appreciation and there's dumb levels of it

[cityzen]

Men have all sorts of idealized beauty out there, however they aren't expected to live up to them. I don't understand exactly why the impossible standard is expected from women and not men.

We are expected to live up to them. An impossible standard is expected from both sexes.

[cityzen]

i actually cant believe Seckle locked that other thread, it REAKS of pompous indignation, what a fanny

Wait. Seckle is a mod?!?

[cosmic_surgeon]

like genevieve said - its just double standards to accuse one for being shallow when 'all you want is to be appreciated for your personality' (not aimed at anyone)

Yeah this is interesting. I'm thinking this reluctance to have one's body appreciated could be related to the sorts of "computationalism" which generates such anti-body hype in society. It's a part of our European-Anglo-American way of relating to things in the world. We're still very much hammering our heads against Plato's project, to eliminate all "wordly" ties and retreat to a land of pure contemplation - blissfully unaware, of course, as to how much the body informs and renders possible such contempation. Remember the hype when computers became the new thing: we'll need to have no bodies anymore! Immortality through uploading one's personality to the internet. I suppose there's a fundamental error here in thinking that the body isn't part of "you".

Nietzsche, Merleau-Ponty, Heidegger, Todes, Dreyfus... all figureheads of a wave of people remembering their bodies and how important they are.

[Pistonsbeneath]

[noam]

a Nietzschaen argument would 'ressentiment' - self hate, the christian rejection of the now in favour of after, reject the body for the soul, deny sexuality out of guilt and shame, repression.

people often accuse Nietzsche of hypocrisy claiming he himself was a victim of such things but who better to give insight into its workings than one of its best pupils...

[cosmic_surgeon]

a Nietzschaen argument would 'ressentiment' - self hate, the christian rejection of the now in favour of after, reject the body for the soul, deny sexuality out of guilt and shame, repression.

people often accuse Nietzsche of hypocrisy claiming he himself was a victim of such things but who better to give insight into its workings than one of its best pupils...

Right on.

[Badman Juice]

if one thread with naked pics is enough to scare away women from the entire forum then surely they wouldn't use the internet in the first place.

[LACE]

Also, I'd be interested to see what you have to say about the link between the objectification of women in nude images online, and the objectification of the male body manifest through the proliferation of sex toys.

I think a consenting adult should be able to enjoy whatever sexual media they choose to be in,regardless of whether or not it offends others. My issue isn't with nude women, I see no problem with it, but people often seem to confuse what they see on the screen (the fantasy) with reality, along with their male entitlement. IMO, sex toys seems to be a bit of a different issue, as it's not living organism being reduced to objectification. A dong is a dong hehe, I can't really see the link as it really is just an object, while a human being is not.

If you think there is an attitude which "bleeds out of" the objectification of the female body through the resources of masculine autosexuality, why is there not a similar "bleeding out" of the objectification of men through the resources of female autosexuality? I'm thinking this more general objectification we're concerned with (the attitudes of men to "real world" ladies) is perhaps down to something else entirely.

Because it's still very much a minority, a small crack in the mirror. Male autosexuality is so dominant,and has been for centuries, it's going to take a little while longer. Male ideals have shaped our society, they're ingrained in men and women already. There's no 'bleeding out' from a female perspective because of the sheer amount of media bias, and cultural bias against women that deludes it.

And as regards the objectification of males, what about those pop tracks with lyrics to the effect "if you can't pay for my shit, then you're not worth my time". Is that treating a man like a person with their own aims and ambitions, or is it treating them like a cash machine? And people buy these tunes so they're obviously feeling them.

Yes it is, and I also find it disrespectful to men in general, I don't think women are better then men, and vice versa, I think we need each other, and we should respect each other.

[nousd]

...one of the things I found a bit difficult to digest regarding feminism is the tendency among some feminists to "demonise" male sexuality as something abhorrent.

not surprising given that women have long been subject to its constant demands & consequences
or, in some cases, just find men repulsive & are thus doubly attracted to the feminist cause

I wouldn't want to be a wife on the end of insatiable priapism without the contemporary right to decline (in some places).

[cosmic_surgeon]

Also, I'd be interested to see what you have to say about the link between the objectification of women in nude images online, and the objectification of the male body manifest through the proliferation of sex toys.

I think a consenting adult should be able to enjoy whatever sexual media they choose to be in,regardless of whether or not it offends others. My issue isn't with nude women, I see no problem with it, but people often seem to confuse what they see on the screen (the fantasy) with reality, along with their male entitlement. (a)IMO, sex toys seems to be a bit of a different issue, as it's not living organism being reduced to objectification. A dong is a dong hehe, I can't really see the link as it really is just an object, while a human being is not.

If you think there is an attitude which "bleeds out of" the objectification of the female body through the resources of masculine autosexuality, why is there not a similar "bleeding out" of the objectification of men through the resources of female autosexuality? I'm thinking this more general objectification we're concerned with (the attitudes of men to "real world" ladies) is perhaps down to something else entirely.

Because it's still very much a minority, a small crack in the mirror. Male autosexuality is so dominant,and has been for centuries, it's going to take a little while longer. Male ideals have shaped our society, they're ingrained in men and women already. (b)There's no 'bleeding out' from a female perspective because of the sheer amount of media bias, and cultural bias against women that deludes it.

And as regards the objectification of males, what about those pop tracks with lyrics to the effect "if you can't pay for my shit, then you're not worth my time". Is that treating a man like a person with their own aims and ambitions, or is it treating them like a cash machine? And people buy these tunes so they're obviously feeling them.

(c)Yes it is, and I also find it disrespectful to men in general, I don't think women are better then men, and vice versa, I think we need each other, and we should respect each other.

(a) That's true, but for the purposes of the discussion it's not entirely relevant. The original contention was that these images lead to the wider objectification of women in society - we weren't talking about the (consenting) women who have their boobz photographed, but rather the patterns of interactivity between men and women in general which are supposed to be affected by such images. As this is the case, sex toys are nevertheless an objectification of a masculine body part every bit as much as the images on the internet are an objectification of a woman's body part, because what is relevant is not who the part belongs to but the attitude of the person who is intending upon it.

(b) Plenty of people in this thread have demonstrated that the media works in every way possible to exploit idiosyncrasies of gender. It might not be so apparent to you as a woman, but they exploit us every bit as much as they exploit you guys. The "lynx effect", the guy who's supposed to get all the girls, the man in the aftershave advert being persued by Kate Moss in a lacey dress, etc.

(c) Right on #2

[SK3W3R]

i like turtles

[noam]

is there potential to argue that the power to instantiate dominant ideals come from the powerful - a small minority

if you're a man and you're not 'powerful' you are less than a woman (in the eyes of the powerful body) since you have even less to 'give'??

[Genevieve]

Not objectification, u say?

Brain scans revealed that when men are shown pictures of scantily clad women, the region of the brain associated with tool use lights up.

I don't actually think just looking at pics of nude women is tantamount to sexual objectification/degradation, but this is obviously very relevant to this thread. 3za brought up a good point when he said that there's a difference between porn that actually degrades women, and just looking at pics of attractive women in the nude or sum shit.

What about degrading women sexually who are consenting of it or even enjoy it?

If that is fine, shouldn't porn that degrades women be fine too?