why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

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JTMMusicuk
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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by JTMMusicuk » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:32 am

VirtualMark wrote:
JTMMusicuk wrote: human hearing averages at 20hz - 20khz and its been proven that even frequencys above 20khz affects our perception of the audible sound, it may not be musical as such but it deffintly enhances what we hear
This is a common myth - as far as i'm aware no scientific evidence proves that we can hear outside of the normal hearing range. If you have any links to any credible studies, i'd be interested to read them.

Digital audio at 44.1khz can only reproduce up to 22khz and mp3 will often be less, so there simply isn't any information up there.
http://jn.physiology.org/content/83/6/3548.full

a quick google search brings up quite a few different results

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by VirtualMark » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:46 am

JTMMusicuk wrote: http://jn.physiology.org/content/83/6/3548.full

a quick google search brings up quite a few different results
That's quite an old study - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_effect

"Attempts to independently reproduce these results have so far been unsuccessful." - this is why i always look for credible studies. We only need to look at last years "faster than light" neutrino results to see that sometimes people get it wrong. If something can't be reproduced by the larger scientific community, then its usually down to an error in the testing.

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by JTMMusicuk » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:48 am

i just read through the whole study i sent you the wrong thing..let me find the study i was reading through


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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by VirtualMark » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:20 pm

JTMMusicuk wrote:http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

i think this is what i was reading
Yeah, this is more about the amount of ultrasonic content present in instruments. Nobodies doubting that these high frequencies are around us all the time, just that we can't hear/sense them. In comparison, radio waves are going through us right now but we can't see them.

And as it also says in your study, the next step would be to measure at normal listening distances. Remember that air absorbs high frequencies more than low frequencies.

Lastly, as i already said, digital audio won't play anything past 22.1khz, unless you get into higher sampling rates. But most of us listen on cd or mp3.



In the part about hearing, they're referring to the same study that you posted earlier:
X. Significance of the results
Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality."
The fact is, the mechanical limits of our ears prevent us from hearing ultrasonic frequencies. From your article:
In a paper published in Science, Lenhardt et al. report that "bone-conducted ultrasonic hearing has been found capable of supporting frequency discrimination and speech detection in normal, older hearing-impaired, and profoundly deaf human subjects."
This is from another article:
The upper frequency limit in humans (approximately 20 kHz) is due to limitations of the middle ear, which acts as a low-pass filter. Ultrasonic hearing can occur if ultrasound is fed directly into the skull bone and reaches the cochlea through bone conduction without passing through the middle ear.
So the only scientifically proven way to hear ultrasound is if its fed directly to your skull. But it certainly can't be conducted via air through your ears, that's just not possible. And seeing as how most of us don't have an ultrasound device attached to our skull, i'd say that the current studies are fairly conclusive.

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by JTMMusicuk » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:28 pm

Ofcourse we cant hear it unless we use special equipment, i already said we can only normally hear between 20hz and 20khz but the ultrasonic frequences proved to make a difference in the perception of the music when played through an ultra tweeter

"Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz. This tweeter was driven by its own amplifier, and the 26 kHz electronic crossover before the amplifier used steep filters. The experimenters found that the listeners' EEGs and their subjective ratings of the sound quality were affected by whether this "ultra-tweeter" was on or off, even though the listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played. "

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by VirtualMark » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:45 pm

JTMMusicuk wrote:Ofcourse we cant hear it unless we use special equipment, i already said we can only normally hear between 20hz and 20khz but the ultrasonic frequences proved to make a difference in the perception of the music when played through an ultra tweeter
No, as i showed you earlier, those results have never been reproduced by the larger scientific community. My guess is that you're just digging your heels in and refuse to accept the evidence provided. Its not my conclusions, i just go with the facts as i like to learn and understand a subject.

This is why i sometimes have an attitude on this forum - i get tired of providing rational answers and facts and getting irrational responses based on lack of understanding and guesswork. I asked you to provide credible evidence, so far you've only provided a disproven study, another study that references the first one and now you're quoting the first one again. No other study has reached the same conclusion and no other scientist has been able to get the results.

If you wish to believe that you can perceive ultrasound through some magical organ that hasn't been shown to exist, that is your choice. Personally i like to live in the real world, so i'll go with physics on this one which proves you can't. ;-)

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by Brian Oblivion » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:58 pm

VirtualMark wrote:
JTMMusicuk wrote:he's clearly not refering to sub bass so yes midrange basslines will sound nice with top end...do you have to be a tnuc everytime you post??
I think calling someone a tnuc is a bit extreme, don't you mate?


For guidance - a C8 note is 4186hz, this is the highest note on a piano. This has been considered sufficient to play music to humans for many years.

This frequency chart has some useful information. You'll see that at 16khz all you'd get from an orchestra would be some of the upper harmonics from things like cymbals, violin, piccolo.

a piano doesnt produce a sine wave though does it? He didnt say the fundamental of his bass was over 16k, if you know half as much as you think you do you will know pointing out the fundamental on the highest note of a paino doesnt really prove anything in this context. I can hear above 15k too, and Ive battered my ears in my life through more raves and metal shows than I can remember. Op can obviously ehar above 15k or he wouldnt have noticed this was a problem for him.

That said, you dont need +16k in your mid range bass, if your drums are balanced and whats under 16k on the bass is balanced then your track wont sound dull. Also a filter isnt a dead kill, it will slope over a few octaves before it hits the deck.

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by JTMMusicuk » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:07 pm

ok as i struggle to find any further tests on the subject i think we should leave it there and will probably say you could be right that ultrasonic frequencys may not make a difference, we have derailed from the origional topic as per though..

i stick by my point that losing the 16khz-20khz of a bass can be a bad thing if the context of the song needs those frequencys, your point about the high c of the piano is invalid as the frequency you gave is the fundamental, the harmonics on top will go way above our hearing range

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by VirtualMark » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:11 pm

Brian Oblivion wrote:a piano doesnt produce a sine wave though does it? He didnt say the fundamental of his bass was over 16k, if you know half as much as you think you do you will know pointing out the fundamental on the highest note of a paino doesnt really prove anything in this context. I can hear above 15k too, and Ive battered my ears in my life through more raves and metal shows than I can remember. Op can obviously ehar above 15k or he wouldnt have noticed this was a problem for him.

That said, you dont need +16k in your mid range bass, if your drums are balanced and whats under 16k on the bass is balanced then your track wont sound dull. Also a filter isnt a dead kill, it will slope over a few octaves before it hits the deck.
Brian - please try to read the whole thread - you didn't even read that post properly:
You'll see that at 16khz all you'd get from an orchestra would be some of the upper harmonics from things like cymbals, violin, piccolo.
The upper harmonics from a piano at normal listening distance would be significantly damped - air does this naturally.

Secondly - how do you know you can hear past 15khz? Have you had a proper hearing test? Or have you used your computer to play test tones?

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by JTMMusicuk » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:15 pm

you on audacity create a tone, set the freq to 20khz and you can just hear it

i dont know why you have to argue any point you can just to try and come out looking like the big man, i hate coming online getting into stupid arguments i honestly do

i think its for the best that i just block you on here

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by VirtualMark » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:32 pm

Personally i get sick of reading stupid ignorant myths each time i come onto this forum. All i do is try to provide the facts, so that people may understand the subject better. Its all freely available on the web. I'm not biased either way, i just try to look at what's true and what isn't.

With regard to self hearing tests:
System non-linearities (present to varying degrees in all audio reproduction electronics, loudspeakers, etc.) are known to produce lower-frequency intermodulation products when the system is stimulated with high frequency signals. It is suggested that this mechanism could produce signals in the audible range that allow listeners to distinguish the signals.[4][11] Artifacts like this are a common problem with PC-based hearing self-tests, for instance.
The only way to test your hearing is to have a proper hearing test done, by a professional with pro equipment. Some of you may think you have supersonic hearing, but you don't.

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by wormcode » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:09 pm

I've not used a filter that topped off at 16khz that I know of. I did try WOW but I didn't really like it personally.
I use Filtroid a lot which tops off at 20khz.

Also it's fairly standard to roll off at around 16khz on vinyl (not always), though it can support extreme frequencies over 100khz theoretically but playback ability depends on the cartridge used. Cassettes cut off at a bit under 16khz...

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by Brian Oblivion » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:58 pm

JTMMusicuk wrote:you on audacity create a tone, set the freq to 20khz and you can just hear it

I dunno if id hear up to 20 but I know I could hear one past 15. What he says about air is true, Im not sure how well Id hear up there coming off a speaker in a room but in headphones yeah you can hear up past 15, and its not just wash either, you can hear the tones. Might be partly brain interpreted like low frequency hearing, but then we dont really know where our brains interpretation of stimulus and reality really cross over when it comes to how we perceive the world.

I did read the thread, the piano will have harmonics up past 16k, if they reach you or not at whatever distance you are at they will still exist and if you listened to a point blank recording in good headphones youd notice if that top end was chopped off. Sounds a lot higher up than 16k can move through air for fair distances though if theyre loud enough.

I do sympathise with you Virtual, because this forum does just want to make you claw your own eyes out sometimes, and in practical terms you are right with your general message, when listening to speakers at normal distances anything about 16k is very marginal, almost non existent, and theres something seriously wrong with your mixdown if you need tons of 18k in your bassline and/or youve been spending way to long on a pair of jacked up headphones. Also paying attention to whats going on at 3k, 5k, 10k etc is 99% of getting the tops right, just chop off everything over 16k on most sounds and youll get a better high end for it. There are also people who would put a filter at 15k and say see I can hear that, not realising the filter is curving way lower than 15k and not hitting the deck till far beyond the cutoff frequency. Im not entirely against what you are saying but not everyone completely loses higher frequency hearing when theyre an adult.

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by drake89 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:26 pm

VirtualMark wrote:
JTMMusicuk wrote: human hearing averages at 20hz - 20khz and its been proven that even frequencys above 20khz affects our perception of the audible sound, it may not be musical as such but it deffintly enhances what we hear
This is a common myth - as far as i'm aware no scientific evidence proves that we can hear outside of the normal hearing range. If you have any links to any credible studies, i'd be interested to read them.

Digital audio at 44.1khz can only reproduce up to 22khz and mp3 will often be less, so there simply isn't any information up there.
in joker masterclass he said when working in 96khz (sample rate?), waves (or maybe fab) filters jump up to 40khz! WHERE MY DAWGZ AT?

But yeah, I think the easiest way to tell if something's a shitty mp3 is the loss of the upper upper end, right? Cause it just totally cuts 15khz or so + out, right?

Clearly you're deaf if you don't think there's ANY relephant information up there. Though to be fair a lot of people can't hear 16khz+!

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by MassAphekt » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:25 pm

ljk32 wrote:I agree with this, in Sylenth, even when the filter is completely opened, you still lose a lot of brightness in the synth. There are ways around it, but it's just a nuisance.

Off topic: is your producing name really going to remain 'Mass Aphekt'? Not that it really matters, but it's spelt wrong, and it is already a game(assuming you didn't already know that).
yup. it was intended to be mispelled and im aware of that.
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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by MassAphekt » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:43 pm

sorry for double post, i appreciate the help from some, not so much from the arrogant know-it-alls
and read the post better.. im LOOKING for a filter that reaches that high....what if i wanted to filter my hats? strings? obviously your gonna lose some brightness in it when you use a 16khz filter.
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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by VirtualMark » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:17 pm

Yeah sorry for my initial post - i thought you was talking about basses because someone mentioned wobbles. You'll see the rest is just arguing over other points, not directed at your post.

If the filter is too dull, why not use an eq instead?

The only other things i can think of are upping the sample rate, using a filter with oversampling or applying a high shelf after you've filtered.

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by drake89 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:27 am

Brian Oblivion wrote:
JTMMusicuk wrote:you on audacity create a tone, set the freq to 20khz and you can just hear it
just chop off everything over 16k on most sounds and youll get a better high end for it.

:corntard:

care to explain your logic here, chief? I LOVE HF, but I've never made a tune where the 15k+ came close to limiting headroom. Maybe that's not what you're talkin about though. I can't imagine the sound itself would be problematic unless you're running some crazy synth/filter resonance!

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Re: why do filters only reach 16khz? Why not 20khz?

Post by sunny_b_uk » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:37 am

what you aiming to do? make some 16khz-20khz step?
ul seriously annoy the fuck out of every1 more than doctor p :6:
there's no need to have over 16khz in mid-range basses, i doubt any properly mixed down songs would have any basses going over 14 or 15khz on the midrangeys.
anyway i think fabfilter pro-q reaches over 20khz if you wana go higher for any reason.
Last edited by sunny_b_uk on Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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