i had to avoid needles every day , every time i left or came back to my house, im with you jera its not nicejera wrote: would you rather these people have a place to go rather than doing it on the streets?.....ive stood on a needle due to this when i was younger....believe me not a nice experience.
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forensix (mcr)
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mrjiggyfly
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Sorry to drift off topic BUT... There is no definitive proof that smoking marijuana causes mental problems.jera wrote:so u know every heroin users life stories do you??
i aint defending every heroin user...because as u said it is their choice. But when your living in an enviroment that some of these people do heroin can be a release.
it is also well documented that smoking weed causes mental problems...but many people choose to ignore that(including me).
would you rather these people have a place to go rather than doing it on the streets?.....ive stood on a needle due to this when i was younger....believe me not a nice experience.
While it may be true that marijuana use may exacerbate problems in persons susceptible to mental illness, thats not the same as saying marijuana caused there illness.
If you research these "well documented" reports that make these claims , its often anti-drug crusaders or groups with agendas who benefit by keeping marijuana illegal that fail to take other explanations into consideration.
CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION!!!!!
Last edited by mrjiggyfly on Fri May 26, 2006 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Smoke 'em if ya got 'em
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forensix (mcr)
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it triggers mental illness.MRJIGGYFLY wrote:
While it may be true that marijuana use may exacerbate problems in persons susceptible to mental illness, thats not the same as saying marijuana caused there illness
CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION!!!!!
if you are susceptible to it you may never get mental illness, but marijuana increases the chances by huge amounts
ive seen it happen its not good
i was in denial till then
people who are adicted to hard drugs has to be seen as an ill person who need fysical, mental and social care...
the problems caused by junkies are often because they
need money for a shot, so they steal or rob
need a place to use and let it hit, often in public what causes unpleasant vibes
a place whre they can drop there used needles...
if you have a place where they are given methanol (medical substitude for heroine) and can hit thereselfs with clean needles, the social problem is partly solved!
when junkies don't spent there money on hero they will buy food again and gain more fysical body resistance. its a misunderstanding that people who use hero look bad cause of there use, no its because they spent all there money on dope and don't eat food! upon here starts more or less a medical threatment, junks have to feel human again and gain more mental power to get clean...
this method works over here, although its not 100 % succesfull.
on the otherhand information and edjucation for everybody is neccesery to stop new people getting addicted!
the problems caused by junkies are often because they
need money for a shot, so they steal or rob
need a place to use and let it hit, often in public what causes unpleasant vibes
a place whre they can drop there used needles...
if you have a place where they are given methanol (medical substitude for heroine) and can hit thereselfs with clean needles, the social problem is partly solved!
when junkies don't spent there money on hero they will buy food again and gain more fysical body resistance. its a misunderstanding that people who use hero look bad cause of there use, no its because they spent all there money on dope and don't eat food! upon here starts more or less a medical threatment, junks have to feel human again and gain more mental power to get clean...
this method works over here, although its not 100 % succesfull.
on the otherhand information and edjucation for everybody is neccesery to stop new people getting addicted!
You are right it is a choice they have made at one point in thier lives. But since they have become slaves to the chemicals. You are also right in saying 'its not my fault' but what the hell does that have to do with anything. We (tho not in the US i guess) pay our taxes to help people wou get ill through no fault of ours, we go out of our way to help someone in the street who has been battered though it is through no fault of ours...Marsyas wrote:because its a choice they made.jera wrote:#Marsyas wrote:lets have a place where pedos can molest kids safely too.
WTF...why shoudl people spend MORE money to help drug addicts.and make it more comfortable and acceptable.
ever thought not all heroin users enjoy being addicted to it?
what gives you the right to look down on some one because of decisions they made in life?You never made a wrong decision in life, or are you jus that perfect?
PRICK!
soz bout thatMarsyas; you keep lookin down your nose at everyone like that & you'll go cross eyed bro
i feel sorry it got out of hand, but its not my fault.
i guess i would feel differently if there was some kind of mask over heroin.
but there isnt, it is well know that its highly addictible.that if u try it, you have a very good chance of being addicted.
in saying that, why would anyone want to try it?
i would rather worry about people who do not choose to fuk their own lives up, people with various forms of cancer, or mental issues.things that they are born with or have had no choice in the matter.
junkies had a choice, and they decided to ignore the facts.
Added to this the fact that a lot of heroin users are from very very deprived backgrounds, possibly got family and or freinds using, totally surrounded by a culture of hard drugs. Also very poorly educated. Also got laods of prejudice against them. No culture of working etc, very few of us on this forum can comprehend that i believe...
Plus it takes it off the streets where they could die in the winter fucked out thier heads in the night, be beaten up, leave dirty needles around, share dirty needles. Thier intake can be monitored if they all come to the same point.
And then finally dont we all get the chance ot make mistakes?!?! Everyone has made terrible mistakes in all different areas at times of thier lives...Thats whay i think we can be quite compassionate towards heroin users.
And as for the paedophilia anaology - way way of target.
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mrjiggyfly
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My best friend died of a heroin overdose .If he would have had a safe place to fix , there's a good chance he'd be alive today.
In these facilities , once you use a syringe , you have a sharps container to properly dispose of it before you leave.
If this kept even one syringe off a childs playground, sidewalk, etc.. then this program has accomplished something positive.
I've brought back a few people who were fucking blue and basically dead, and let me tell you, You never forget that shit!!!!!
People ate gonna shoot dope regardless.
Giving them a safe place is a great idea!!!
In these facilities , once you use a syringe , you have a sharps container to properly dispose of it before you leave.
If this kept even one syringe off a childs playground, sidewalk, etc.. then this program has accomplished something positive.
I've brought back a few people who were fucking blue and basically dead, and let me tell you, You never forget that shit!!!!!
People ate gonna shoot dope regardless.
Giving them a safe place is a great idea!!!
Smoke 'em if ya got 'em
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luke.envoy
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Not all heroin addicts are from shit backgrounds, I've met quite a few from well-off, functional families that end up doing it cause they're bored or think there's some sort of wierd rebellion against comfortable origins or just think it was cool as one of their idols was a junkie, although I take the point that most people that need to escape that bacly probably should.
Trying to remember if it was in Holland or not, but there was a scheme where junkies were given flats and free heroin, and it was found that when users were removed from the street, a lot of the reasons they were taking heroin (homelessness, associating with other users, chaotic lifestyle, etc) were addressed, they managed to reduce or kick altogether. I realise that to an extent heroin addiction is personal choice, so it does seem to reward weakness, but in terms of public safety, burglary reduction, and just trying to be decent to folks that took the wrong path it seems to make sense.
Should also be pointed out that heroin costs a fiftieth at source to what it'd sell at here. A burglar will generally get 10% of the value of the item he steals to get money for skag, so just doing some basic maths indicates that it'd be far cheaper for all concerned to give them free smack than it would be to let things continue as they are.
Nobody wants to be seen to be soft on drugs in government though, so it seems doubtful that there'll be a reasoned argument about this in the foreseeable though.
Trying to remember if it was in Holland or not, but there was a scheme where junkies were given flats and free heroin, and it was found that when users were removed from the street, a lot of the reasons they were taking heroin (homelessness, associating with other users, chaotic lifestyle, etc) were addressed, they managed to reduce or kick altogether. I realise that to an extent heroin addiction is personal choice, so it does seem to reward weakness, but in terms of public safety, burglary reduction, and just trying to be decent to folks that took the wrong path it seems to make sense.
Should also be pointed out that heroin costs a fiftieth at source to what it'd sell at here. A burglar will generally get 10% of the value of the item he steals to get money for skag, so just doing some basic maths indicates that it'd be far cheaper for all concerned to give them free smack than it would be to let things continue as they are.
Nobody wants to be seen to be soft on drugs in government though, so it seems doubtful that there'll be a reasoned argument about this in the foreseeable though.
Hmm....
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eventualdecline
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How about to stem the spread of communicable diseases for starters... Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the advantages here...Marsyas wrote:lets have a place where pedos can molest kids safely too.
WTF...why shoudl people spend MORE money to help drug addicts.and make it more comfortable and acceptable.
i guess all you guys should just live in a bubble, because there are inherant riskes with everyday living.
last time i checked junkies re use their needles numerous times, so the dirty needles on the ground arguement is lame.
there are already options for treatment, so i say use those.then again i think most heroin users will be addicted for life, through treatment or not.
so why dont we just seperate every type of person that conflicts with your thoughts of some utopian society,a nd put them in a "safe" shelter.
how many addicts do u really think would use this, for one they would be nervous that they will get grabbed up for using, two they are already apprehensive about everything.
either way i wouldnt support it in my area...thats it.
last time i checked junkies re use their needles numerous times, so the dirty needles on the ground arguement is lame.
there are already options for treatment, so i say use those.then again i think most heroin users will be addicted for life, through treatment or not.
so why dont we just seperate every type of person that conflicts with your thoughts of some utopian society,a nd put them in a "safe" shelter.
how many addicts do u really think would use this, for one they would be nervous that they will get grabbed up for using, two they are already apprehensive about everything.
either way i wouldnt support it in my area...thats it.
This type of treatment option comes from what is called a "Harm Reduction Philosophy", and either you buy into it, or you don't. Either you see the benefits outweighing the costs, or you don't.
Here's some things to think about:
a) people who are addicted to chemicals (heroin or not), are classifiably mentally ill at a certain level as dictated by the DSM IV. At some point, it is an illness which needs to be recognized as such and treated in order to make positive change. A person who is addicted is, at some level, no longer able to change themselves - no longer able to decide to quit themselves. Their mental capacity to decide anything rational about the drug, let alone much else, is highly impaired.
b) the risks associated with injectable drugs is the transmission of blood-borne diseases. Reuse of one user's needle by himself is not the crux of the issue - reuse of an AIDs infected user's needle by a non-infected user who then passes that needle off, and then that needle gets discarded and a kid picks it up and sticks himself with it... then that becomes a problem. Users often discard the needles because they are high and totally out of it or they are at risk of being caught with paraphenalia. You probably also don't know the junkies that are so far gone that they're homeless.
Here, the benefit to the program is that unclean needles get out of circulation and stay off the street. You don't have to be a kid to stick yourself with a needle. You could be picking up litter in your yard and get stuck because someone dropped a needle there. It happens.
c) People who are involved in drug use and who are addicted will often engage in physically, mentally, and socially negative activities such as sex-trade, burglary, etc. in order to get enough money for their fix / clean equipment. The man power, court costs, jail time, etc. incurred to incarcerate one user caught stealing is HUGE compared to providing clean needles and a safe environment. This may also provide an out from the negative activies and may get someone out of the sex-trade, for instance - a trade that has huge health risks involved.
THe benefit is keeping one more girl off the street corners, one more guy out of jail, and one more person alive.
The police and jail system, in all honesty, are not trained to deal with drug users (remember, it's a mental illness at a point, that also happens to be a crime). The cost to the courts, police forces, etc. is huge. Deal with the dealers. That's the criminal act. The users are not necessarily the criminals, and are often the victims. Call me a "bleeding heart"...
The risks do not end with the individual either. There's also the risk to the families of the user, if that user is still with his/her family, children, etc. If a mother is bringing customers home, what impact does that have on her children?
d) There are usually associated addiction services and rehabilitation options with the needle exchange programs, etc. People who are drug addicts are often estranged from their family, friends, support network, have lost their jobs and homes. The availabilty of a safe, non-judgemental area where people can set themselves straight with reduced risk of becoming infected, getting incarcerated, being involved in the sex trade, etc. can also afford them access assistance that they might not seek otherwise.
If even a few people can recover from their addiction, a few more reduce their intake, a few more stop stealing, and all of them healthier choices about their lives, I personally see benefit in that.
e) Just and FYI for eveyrone, the heroin replacement is Methadone, not Methanol - Methanol is a form of wood alcohol. I wouldn't recommend taking that intravenously.
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Marsyas, do you feel the same way about drunk drivers? Do you offer to pay for a cab if your friends are drunk, or take their keys, or drive them home? It's the same thing. They're your friends. They're not bad people.
And neither are the majority of drug users. They're just doing something that is very harmful.
(lol, I wrote this in Quick Reply - no such luck)
Here's some things to think about:
a) people who are addicted to chemicals (heroin or not), are classifiably mentally ill at a certain level as dictated by the DSM IV. At some point, it is an illness which needs to be recognized as such and treated in order to make positive change. A person who is addicted is, at some level, no longer able to change themselves - no longer able to decide to quit themselves. Their mental capacity to decide anything rational about the drug, let alone much else, is highly impaired.
b) the risks associated with injectable drugs is the transmission of blood-borne diseases. Reuse of one user's needle by himself is not the crux of the issue - reuse of an AIDs infected user's needle by a non-infected user who then passes that needle off, and then that needle gets discarded and a kid picks it up and sticks himself with it... then that becomes a problem. Users often discard the needles because they are high and totally out of it or they are at risk of being caught with paraphenalia. You probably also don't know the junkies that are so far gone that they're homeless.
Here, the benefit to the program is that unclean needles get out of circulation and stay off the street. You don't have to be a kid to stick yourself with a needle. You could be picking up litter in your yard and get stuck because someone dropped a needle there. It happens.
c) People who are involved in drug use and who are addicted will often engage in physically, mentally, and socially negative activities such as sex-trade, burglary, etc. in order to get enough money for their fix / clean equipment. The man power, court costs, jail time, etc. incurred to incarcerate one user caught stealing is HUGE compared to providing clean needles and a safe environment. This may also provide an out from the negative activies and may get someone out of the sex-trade, for instance - a trade that has huge health risks involved.
THe benefit is keeping one more girl off the street corners, one more guy out of jail, and one more person alive.
The police and jail system, in all honesty, are not trained to deal with drug users (remember, it's a mental illness at a point, that also happens to be a crime). The cost to the courts, police forces, etc. is huge. Deal with the dealers. That's the criminal act. The users are not necessarily the criminals, and are often the victims. Call me a "bleeding heart"...
The risks do not end with the individual either. There's also the risk to the families of the user, if that user is still with his/her family, children, etc. If a mother is bringing customers home, what impact does that have on her children?
d) There are usually associated addiction services and rehabilitation options with the needle exchange programs, etc. People who are drug addicts are often estranged from their family, friends, support network, have lost their jobs and homes. The availabilty of a safe, non-judgemental area where people can set themselves straight with reduced risk of becoming infected, getting incarcerated, being involved in the sex trade, etc. can also afford them access assistance that they might not seek otherwise.
If even a few people can recover from their addiction, a few more reduce their intake, a few more stop stealing, and all of them healthier choices about their lives, I personally see benefit in that.
e) Just and FYI for eveyrone, the heroin replacement is Methadone, not Methanol - Methanol is a form of wood alcohol. I wouldn't recommend taking that intravenously.
--
Marsyas, do you feel the same way about drunk drivers? Do you offer to pay for a cab if your friends are drunk, or take their keys, or drive them home? It's the same thing. They're your friends. They're not bad people.
And neither are the majority of drug users. They're just doing something that is very harmful.
(lol, I wrote this in Quick Reply - no such luck)
Nothing to do with taking them off the streets in the name of a more utopian society mate, if anything they woulb become more visible if this ever happened due to the inevitable Daily Mail shitstorm etc.Marsyas wrote:i guess all you guys should just live in a bubble, because there are inherant riskes with everyday living.
last time i checked junkies re use their needles numerous times, so the dirty needles on the ground arguement is lame.
there are already options for treatment, so i say use those.then again i think most heroin users will be addicted for life, through treatment or not.
so why dont we just seperate every type of person that conflicts with your thoughts of some utopian society,a nd put them in a "safe" shelter.
how many addicts do u really think would use this, for one they would be nervous that they will get grabbed up for using, two they are already apprehensive about everything.
either way i wouldnt support it in my area...thats it.
I think it boils down to the fact that society (imo) has a duty to help its more vulnerable members. The same motivation behind having a welfare state.
I think lots of addicts would use them - you obviously dont get arrested if you go there to use, thats the whole point of them.
You think most addicts will be users for life AND you don't want to help them? Sounds kinda callous written down mate.
But each to their own innit, topics like this are always going to be contentious!
thnxz for the correction deepsix, i ment methadone indeed.... (good reply, tho. couldn't write it in better english)deepsix wrote: e) Just and FYI for eveyrone, the heroin replacement is Methadone, not Methanol - Methanol is a form of wood alcohol. I wouldn't recommend taking that intravenously.
Shonky: yeah i believe it was in Holland
couldnt agree with you more.spot on!docdoom wrote: I think it boils down to the fact that society (imo) has a duty to help its more vulnerable members.
the sad thing is bout heroin addiction(or any addiction for that matter) is the fact the addict must want to come off it....it can't be forced upon them.
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