Joe Biden, the RAVE act, dubstepforum, and you

bellybelle · Post by **bellybelle** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:22 pm

kidlogic wrote:So, in short, as much as I dont like Biden, there is no fucking way thats gonna change my vote. If anything, him openly going against some of his running mates platform and spouting off anti gun control laws that worry me more, and thats still not gonna stop me from voting for Obama, because #1. he's not gonna have that much power and #2. McCain is a lying old bastard, and Palin is grossly underqualified, and we as a nation cant afford to hand them the keys to the White House.

right. And no one is debating this at this point. The question is not is this going to make you vote for McCain over Obama. The question is are you prepared to have Obama as your president. Other than McCain not winning, what does having Obama as president mean? Since this is not the only question on our plate (McCain vs. Obama), we have to be prepared for the fallout of both decisions.

Look, Obama supporters. I understand that you don't want McCain in office. That point has been made abundantly clear. But what hasn't necessarily been made *as* clear is what do you hope for from team Obama/Biden. If you're just voting for them as a reaction to the Republicans, you could quite possibly be doing yourself a disservice by not understanding what it means to have Obama/Biden in office.

If your sole reason for voting for Obama/Biden is to deny McCain/Palin the right to power, then you're not exactly ready for Obama to be President. You're just ready for McCain to not be. What we are asking you to consider is what it really means to have him as president....

Or is the decision for who takes the most important office in the country only important in denying someone else? Remember.....no matter how much you don't want McCain in power....how much do you fully endorse Obama's policies? Most Obama supporters are as unfamiliar with what he stands behind as Palin is about women's rights--because the idea of making sure a Republican is not in office for the War and gas seem to be more important than what you are implicitly voting for by voting Obama/Biden.

Again.....Election Day is one day in the year. Are you prepared for your choice to be president for not just one day, but 4 years?

bellybelle · Post by **bellybelle** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:49 pm

quite plainly and honestly, what is the difference between supporting Obama out of fear of McCain and Americans feeling the war in Iraq was justified originally by fear of a repeat of 9/11? Because of what side the issues are? If you're voting as a reaction to fear....then you're not being a responsible citizen either. You don't vote against a president. You vote FOR a president. Why are Obama supporters so loathe to question their voting process by constantly revisiting the idea that its not McCain? If you believe a vote for Obama is a vote for change, then you should be voting for Obama because you stand by him and support his policies--NOT JUST because its a vote against McCain. And to keep pointing at the fact that he isn't McCain when Obama is questioned....well thats just more smoke and mirrors, isn't it?

dubsteptim · Post by **dubsteptim** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:13 pm

sapphic_beats wrote:
Little Boh Peep wrote:
hera wrote:changing my vote based on the rave act is about as logical as supporting Palin because she's a woman. call me battered, but I would put up with alot more on his rap sheet if it meant keeping McPalin out. you & shiva are absolutely right, though. But the rave bill just isnt a deciding factor for me, and voting for the man who co-sponsored it doesnt keep me up at night. If it was up to the Republicans they'd have rave promoters hanged by the balls. so to speak.
My thoughts exactly. What Palin stands for takes away many more of people's personal freedoms than the rave act.
oh i don't think any of us disagree on this point, trust me.

but it does bear some analysis nonetheless, because even if obama/biden wins, we have to remain vigilant because the dems have done plenty of damage in enacting insane draconian laws themselves.

all of this

bellybelle wrote:quite plainly and honestly, what is the difference between supporting Obama out of fear of McCain and Americans feeling the war in Iraq was justified originally by fear of a repeat of 9/11? Because of what side the issues are? If you're voting as a reaction to fear....then you're not being a responsible citizen either. You don't vote against a president. You vote FOR a president. Why are Obama supporters so loathe to question their voting process by constantly revisiting the idea that its not McCain? If you believe a vote for Obama is a vote for change, then you should be voting for Obama because you stand by him and support his policies--NOT JUST because its a vote against McCain. And to keep pointing at the fact that he isn't McCain when Obama is questioned....well thats just more smoke and mirrors, isn't it?

tbh, im not HUGE OMG OBAMA = SAVIOUR! this election

but, i can say for a few reasons why i am supporting him.

#1 - The War. My friend has died over there, there is nothing to win, it had nothing to do w/ 9/11. I'm tired of wasting $10 billion a month. I'd rather him spend $10 billion a month in social programs than a pointless war. Our troops need to come home, we need to quit pissing and fighting over there.

#2 Energy. As much as ppl scream OMG WE NEED OFFSHORE DRILLING! (which i know he does support) we need ALOT more than that. I dont get why so many Americans think Off Shore drilling will reduce our prices at the pump. There is NO STATE RUN oil company in america. so basically, even if oil companies are allowed to drill, they do not have to sell it back to america. it goes on the global oil market. Obama is big on renewable energies, and there are PLENTY of places across the big ole USA where wind power could be very good. We can build more hydro-electric dams with out harming wildlife. and more. but none of that is going to happen if we continue to shell out huge tax breaks and no incentives to oil companies. we need a pro-active stance on this to get america off of oil.

#3 Fiscal responsibility. It took me awhile to swallow this pill (as im pretty libertarian leaning) but the GOP absolutely destroyed americas budget and is absolutely spending us into record amounts of debt. its not good, it has devalued our dollar, and has put us in the economic mess we are in now. sure, everyone likes tax cuts -- but we cant just continue to cut taxes & spend. and Obama realizes that. why are we giving subsidies for oil and gas companies still? are they hurting that badly? I dont fucking think so and I know Obama would end that. His he consistantly voted YES on ending "no-bid" federal govt contract that absolutely WASTE tax payers money and the govt DOES NOT get the best service or deal that way. He has voted AGAINST raising the statutory debt limit -- he knows you cant keep raising it, spending more, and cutting more taxes -- it doesnt work and is not fiscally sound. He has voted to regulate the medicare industry which scams and scams the govt of hundreds of millions of dollars each year. And other things -- why should we give "american" companies tax breaks for shipping our jobs overseas and making americans dependent on foreign produced products?

I realize Obama isn't gonna be some miracle worker. But we need to start somewhere and get America back on track and out of the gutter.

ashley · Post by **ashley** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:15 pm

Yeh man. I am all for toasting Soreen. Allow margarine though - strictly butter in these ends.

bellybelle · Post by **bellybelle** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:21 pm

dubsteptim wrote:I realize Obama isn't gonna be some miracle worker. But we need to start somewhere and get America back on track and out of the gutter.

agreed and understood. So looking at Biden's role on the party ticket shouldn't be such a bad thing. Obama *isn't* going to be a miracle worker. And if he became president, saying, "At least he isn't McCain," is not going to work past year one. I think we owe it to ourselves to scrutinize ALL of our options because this is an important election. Looking at what it might mean to have Obama/Biden as Pres/VP doesn't mean you're being asked to abandon your choice. It just means that you have made your choice wisely. Pointing at the idea that at least he's not McCain doesn't do anything for me because if he became President, he wouldn't be touting around McCain with him and saying, "Hey.....at least its not this guy!"

kidlogic · Post by **kidlogic** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:22 pm

Shiva just said much more sussinctly than I was going to why I am voting for Obama... I do not think hes the savior or necessarily even the best choice, but for those reasons and the issue of healthcare reform I will be voting for him.

Basically Im voting for the guy who realizes things are broken and wants to try to fix them over the guy who lies straight to our faces and thinks nothing is wrong.

bellybelle · Post by **bellybelle** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:34 pm

kidlogic wrote:Shiva just said much more sussinctly than I was going to why I am voting for Obama... I do not think hes the savior or necessarily even the best choice, but for those reasons and the issue of healthcare reform I will be voting for him.

Basically Im voting for the guy who realizes things are broken and wants to try to fix them over the guy who lies straight to our faces and thinks nothing is wrong.

Questioning Biden wasn't a matter of turning a voters opinion. Supporters, more than the opposition, need to question the leaders they are actively choosing and what it means to have the person take that office.

Put it this way....

If McCain wasn't even in the picture....if McCain/Palin were not the opposition.... what does it still mean to vote for Obama/Biden? Do we not, as American citizens, owe it to ourselves and our country to examine what that actually means?

dubsteptim · Post by **dubsteptim** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:59 pm

bellybelle wrote:
dubsteptim wrote:I realize Obama isn't gonna be some miracle worker. But we need to start somewhere and get America back on track and out of the gutter.
agreed and understood. So looking at Biden's role on the party ticket shouldn't be such a bad thing. Obama *isn't* going to be a miracle worker. And if he became president, saying, "At least he isn't McCain," is not going to work past year one. I think we owe it to ourselves to scrutinize ALL of our options because this is an important election. Looking at what it might mean to have Obama/Biden as Pres/VP doesn't mean you're being asked to abandon your choice. It just means that you have made your choice wisely. Pointing at the idea that at least he's not McCain doesn't do anything for me because if he became President, he wouldn't be touting around McCain with him and saying, "Hey.....at least its not this guy!"

right and hear ya. like i said there are three issues that i agree very strongly with Obama on. I don;t think theres any politician anywhere that any citizen agrees 100% with. are there things i disagree with Obama on? of course!!!! but this is a really important election and i think Obama can start to make some good positive changes and take us in a better direction. and thats why i will select his name in november.

dubsola · Post by **dubsola** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:05 pm

Were I American, I'd vote for Obama for the following reasons:

1. He's less likely to go to war with Iran.
2. He does not oppose the Roe vs. Wade supreme court decision (this decision ruled that making abortions illegal was unconstitutional)
3. He's a lot more gay and lesbian friendly (although he does not support gay marraige)
4. He has released a coherent science plan that is endorsed by scientists.
5. He supports tax reform that helps lower and middle income earners more than high income earners.

Links:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAzBxFaio1I
2. http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/iss ... 71df58.htm
3. http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbian ... kObama.htm
4. http://sefora.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ience1.pdf
5. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/j ... go/tax.gif

kidlogic · Post by **kidlogic** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:27 pm

kidlogic wrote:Shiva just said much more sussinctly than I was going to why I am voting for Obama... I do not think hes the savior or necessarily even the best choice, but for those reasons and the issue of healthcare reform I will be voting for him.

Basically Im voting for the guy who realizes things are broken and wants to try to fix them over the guy who lies straight to our faces and thinks nothing is wrong.

whoops... meant to say Tim on this...

and Dubsola, good points.

bright maroon · Post by **bright maroon** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:37 pm

Biden lives in Wilmington DE - I lived in Wilmington and New Castle County for the past 10 years and I may be able to shed some light on that..

Wilmington, Delaware has one of the worst herion/crack subcultures that I have ever experienced..No I wasn't using, but I was in contact with plently of people to know...

to complicate that...the communities are very polarized..and what I mean by that is..you have children of very wealthy people right next to that which is exceptionally dejected..so alot of those wealthy kids get mixed up in it very hard and from a young age...to the point where you have upper class white teenage heroin addicted prostitutes...stealing the neighbors car to make drug runs and turn tricks...Wilmington also has one of the nations highest per capita AIDS infection rates in the country...

So..Biden is not dumb.

Wilmington is alot like Baltimore...dropped right in the middle of DuPont country...

I could tell you some ridiculous stories..

Did I mention Little Italy? Wilmington has a Little Italy - but the Irish are trying to keep that busted up.

djshiva · Post by **djshiva** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:43 pm

bellybelle wrote: Questioning Biden wasn't a matter of turning a voters opinion. Supporters, more than the opposition, need to question the leaders they are actively choosing and what it means to have the person take that office.

Put it this way....

If McCain wasn't even in the picture....if McCain/Palin were not the opposition.... what does it still mean to vote for Obama/Biden? Do we not, as American citizens, owe it to ourselves and our country to examine what that actually means?

yes. we need to closely analyze even those politicians whom we support. one thing that i don't wanna see happen, is that obama wins and everybody is happy and all the people who got up off their ass and got active either in his campaign or volunteering outside of it, all of them go back home. we need to continue to be active in our communities, and in holding our "leaders" accountable.

the only real change that has ever happened in this country, was because ordinary people paid attention, and when they saw the politicians weren't gonna do anything, they got together and worked their asses off to make it right. so ya best know who you are dealing with when you cast that vote. knowledge is key, and there is nothing wrong with being wary about dumb votes (like the rave act or...say...obama voting for the new FISA bill); in fact i would say it's a necessity.

basically i am trying to say that people are reacting pretty awkwardly to a mention of one bill that concerns many of us, as if anyone was saying that one bill would cause us to all turn and run toward the hockey mom. that's not it at all. but we damn well better know who it is we support, and what we need to watch out for after we cast our vote, dontcha think?

p.s. i happen to hate the rave act, but really like biden's record on women's issues, so that's just an example that you are never gonna get the perfect candidate. ever. it won't happen. it's always gonna be a mix. there will be things you like and things you hate. all voting is strategy. just know the facts is all i am saying.

dj cal cutta · Post by **dj cal cutta** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:00 pm

bright maroon wrote:Biden lives in Wilmington DE - I lived in Wilmington and New Castle County for the past 10 years and I may be able to shed some light on that..

Wilmington, Delaware has one of the worst herion/crack subcultures that I have ever experienced..No I wasn't using, but I was in contact with plently of people to know...

to complicate that...the communities are very polarized..and what I mean by that is..you have children of very wealthy people right next to that which is exceptionally dejected..so alot of those wealthy kids get mixed up in it very hard and from a young age...to the point where you have upper class white teenage heroin addicted prostitutes...stealing the neighbors car to make drug runs and turn tricks...Wilmington also has one of the nations highest per capita AIDS infection rate in the country...

So..Biden is not dumb.

Wilmington is alot like Baltimore...dropped right in the middle of DuPont country...

I could tell you some ridiculous stories..

While I come from a town similarly infected with a serious heroin/methamphetamine problem(Springfield, Oregon), what you've just listed would be considered a local issue. Something that should be combatted with local legislation. Past that, absolutely nothing you've described has a single thing to do with the rave scene, these are just local drug epidemics you've listed.

The RAVE act was federal legislation...in this case, the problems of the few should not affect all.

dj cal cutta · Post by **dj cal cutta** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:03 pm

dubsola wrote:Were I American, I'd vote for Obama for the following reasons:

1. He's less likely to go to war with Iran.
2. He does not oppose the Roe vs. Wade supreme court decision (this decision ruled that making abortions illegal was unconstitutional)
3. He's a lot more gay and lesbian friendly (although he does not support gay marraige)
4. He has released a coherent science plan that is endorsed by scientists.
5. He supports tax reform that helps lower and middle income earners more than high income earners.

Links:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAzBxFaio1I
2. http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/iss ... 71df58.htm
3. http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbian ... kObama.htm
4. http://sefora.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ience1.pdf
5. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/j ... go/tax.gif

Frankly, this kind of post is exactly what I was afraid of in this thread...I tried to be clear in my first post(and Shiva has very astutely reiterated my point several times thereafter), this is *not* ANYBODY saying "I'm not voting for Obama because of the RAVE act or ________", this is taking a serious look at something which affects many people on this board, directly, by a politician who is running for office and a majority of this board supports.

I'm just gonna flat-out say it, I think a lot of folks on this board are getting the Ostrich syndrome at any thought of being critical of Obama's campaign, and that is very unfortunate. Support includes scrutiny...even criticism.

bright maroon · Post by **bright maroon** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:18 pm

DJ Cal Cutta wrote:The RAVE act was federal legislation...in this case, the problems of the few should not affect all.

I am in no way supporting the Rave Act - I was raving my ass off from '94 till about '97..

I'm just saying don't kid yourself and think that people don't notice.

Raving was mega dirty there for a minute...

..I personally think that a proactive scene can salvage people who are teetering on the edge...secondary to being responsible for some of the most amazing and important music ever! I was a raver because I thought it was an art movement..

djshiva · Post by **djshiva** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:25 pm

DJ Cal Cutta wrote: I'm just gonna flat-out say it, I think a lot of folks on this board are getting the Ostrich syndrome at any thought of being critical of Obama's campaign, and that is very unfortunate. Support includes scrutiny...even criticism.

bellybelle · Post by **bellybelle** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:29 pm

sapphic_beats wrote:
DJ Cal Cutta wrote: I'm just gonna flat-out say it, I think a lot of folks on this board are getting the Ostrich syndrome at any thought of being critical of Obama's campaign, and that is very unfortunate. Support includes scrutiny...even criticism.

x10000000

and this is not just cuz i wanted kucinich...even though i wanted kucinich

hera · Post by **hera** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:50 pm

by all means be critical, but expect a thorough ass beating if mccain gets elected as we'll elect you lot the scapegoat

dj cal cutta · Post by **dj cal cutta** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:52 pm

Had you actually gone back and read my first post before trying to point fingers, you'll see that I'm voting for Obama(edit: and past that, did *anyone* say they're not voting Obama in this thread, if anything, did they say ANYTHING but the exact opposite???)...

Not only that, did you happen to forget about the Electoral College? And then read what state I'm in....yeah, gonna blame me for what?

bellybelle · Post by **bellybelle** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:59 pm

hera wrote:by all means be critical, but expect a thorough ass beating if mccain gets elected as we'll elect you lot the scapegoat

I'm voting for Obama. This has nothing to do with how I'm voting and everything to do with what it means that I'm voting for him.

If we can't even question the choices we're making, this becomes the same argument that got us into the war with widespread approval. Instead of questioning our government, our citizens were persuaded to throw full support behind President Bush in the vague War on Terror. So terrified were people made to be about the possibility of another 9/11 attack that they never bothered to question why it is we went to Iraq and not Afghanistan/Pakistan, where Bin Laden was actually reputed to be hiding.

If we had taken a moment to be critical then, we could have stood together and made our leaders answer our questions. Instead....it became...

Either you support the war or you hate America and all the people who died for freedom.

To make this statement contemporary:

Either you support Obama or you hate America and all the people who died for freedom.

Rhetoric is rhetoric--no matter which side of the line you're affiliated with.

**perhaps this is the major problem of having a two party system. I don't see criticism of a candidate as affirmation of another. Not everything exists on this duality. This isn't a see saw. This is the most important decision we face as a nation. And if we don't call those we support to task, then we lose. We must love our country enough to correct and question. To do otherwise is to take lightly one of the biggest responsibilities we have as Americans.

Joe Biden, the RAVE act, dubstepforum, and you

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